Is Earl's Faux really Brandywine? and more controversies

[greggf]

I've seen vague references to certain varieties possibly being identical to or close to other varieties.

So, is Earl's Faux just Brandywine?

Is Aunt Gertie's Gold really Yellow Brandywine?

Is Kimberly possibly Stupice?

Are any number of black tomatoes with different names really far fewer varieties than there are names?

What are some other varieties that might really be other existing varieties?

I'm thinking, in general, about the blue potato controversy of a few years ago, whereby there were many, many different blue taters that turned out to be, in the end, only a few truly unique varieties.

Is this happening in our neck of the woods here, too, now that more and more people are growing heirlooms and open pollinateds and more and more "entrepreneurs" are getting creative with tomato seed marketing at ebay?

=gregg=

[nctomatoman]

Without genetic testing it would be hard to confirm any of these sorts of theories, but my suspicion is that there are far fewer actual tomato varieties than there are names. It also becomes complicated when trying to decide what the actual definition of variety is, vs a very similar selection (a tomato that seems identical to another except that it matures on average 3 days sooner, for example - the term "strain" or selection is often used). Definitely a slippery slope discussion! Best thing to do is to keep whatever name it comes to you wish, as a just in case, and to keep the original sources straight.

[carolyn137]

So, is Earl's Faux just Brandywine?

I dunno, possibly.

(Is Aunt Gertie's Gold really Yellow Brandywine?)

Definitely not is my opinion. Different ripening times, different fruit shape and size and most of all different taste.

(Is Kimberly possibly Stupice?)

Not if one believes the history for it that I got from the SSE Yearbooks as to who it was in Canada who bred it and what the parents were and I've posted that information.

(Are any number of black tomatoes with different names really far fewer varieties than there are names?)

For sure.

Craig and I have both commented that way back when, there were darn few black varieties listed in the YEarbooks and then all of sudden there was an explosion of new listings for blacks. And those who have done large trials of many blacks in the same season have also said that they've noted that they couldn't tell the difference between some of the varieties.

Where there is demand the varieties will appear.

And I suspect the same thing is now happening with the green when ripe varieties.

(What are some other varieties that might really be other existing varieties?)

Gregg, I think that would really have to be based on a specific variety question as in comparing A with B.

And now I defer to Craig's post above rather than my typing essentially the same thing re variety duplication and keeping good records. There's no question that some of the OP's were probably commercial heirlooms, the names were lost and then the variety renamed. I suspect that that would be less so with family OP's that have good documentation as to origin.

[mdvpc]

Kimberly is definately not stupice-I have grown both side by side and they arent even similiar.

[travis]

There may be coincidences involved here.

For example, I grew one Earl's Faux plant side-by-side with a Brandywine this year. There were no clearly obvious differences between the two.

I really started studying the two plants very closely to try to find some differences ... and here is all I found:

The Brandywine ripened the bulk of its fruit about one week earlier than the bulk of Earl's Faux fruit ripened.

The Earl's Faux tomatoes separated from the calyx more easily than the Brandywine tomatoes.

Other than that, the fruit size was about the same ... I say "about" because I didn't measure every single fruit or weigh ever single tomato, but I posted photographs of them on the same cutting board and next to the same scale.

The exterior shapes, color, skin characteristics, and interior color, structure, seed counts, taste, etc. were indiscernable.

The leaf shapes were identical to my unscientific and amatuer eye ... and this is the point ... "amatuer eye."

So, why am I sayin' "coincidental?"

Well, with only one of each to compare, and with only amatuer eyes doin' the comparison ... it coulda just been a coincidence that these two plants were so much the same. And what about my seed sources ... one commercial and one a gift from another amatuer?

And no, there was no mix-up ... they were started in two different cell trays and were kept in separate tote boxes and transfered at different times to different colored 4-inch pots ... etc. ... and I had a lotta trouble with the EF seedlings and none whatever with the Brandywines ... so I clearly remember which was which ... but couldn't really tell any difference in the plants after they got about halfway to maturity.

But I'm not jumpin' to any conclusions until I grow more of each side-by-side.

PV

[Suze]

I've seen vague references to certain varieties possibly being identical to or close to other varieties.

So, is Earl's Faux just Brandywine?

I don't think it is. EF performs better in my garden than Brandywine in terms of setting fruit in heat -- it's much more productive. Fruits are also a bit smaller. Nor do I think it is Marianna's Peace, as I've seen some suggest.

Is Aunt Gertie's Gold really Yellow Brandywine?

No. Completely different tastes and fruit shapes. Aunt Gert throws a lot of irregular fruits, YB tends to be more regular in shape. Aunt Gert also seems to be more productive in my garden than YB.

Is Kimberly possibly Stupice?

No. Definitely different, both in taste and shape.

Are any number of black tomatoes with different names really far fewer varieties than there are names?

Sure. I don't know about *far* fewer, but I do think there is some duplication/"creative" renaming.

Suze

[Suze]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

It also becomes complicated when trying to decide what the actual definition of variety is, vs a very similar selection (a tomato that seems identical to another except that it matures on average 3 days sooner, for example - the term "strain" or selection is often used).

Speaking of which -- how do you think CP and Carbon compare? I still think Carbon is a selection of CP (slightly later, perhaps just a tad darker), and am not aware of any history indicating otherwise.

Very, very similar tastes, shapes, locule structures -- and both must haves/top 10's for me.

[Earl]

I've grown all of these. In my humble opinion:

Earl's Faux is not Brandywine.

Aunt Gertie's Gold is not Yellow Brandywine.

Kimberly is not Stupice.

[PaulF]

This year in my garden,etc., Carbon and CP were next to each other. Carbon was the choice of my family for taste. Production was about equal: 19 tomatoes totaling 14 lbs for Carbon and 16 tomatoes at 12 lbs for Cherokee Purple. Since CP has been my all-time favorite, I was pleasantly surprised by Carbon. Carbon began ripening about 10 days earlier than CP and Carbon seemed to be a bit darker. Both will be in the cages next year.

[greggf]

Is Bloody Butcher the same as Stupice?

This is the one direct comparison I've made. I'll say yes. But as others have said, I, too, have an amateur eye, and will submit to the opinions of others.

[Mantis]

Glad to hear that Kimberly is not Stupice or I would be pulling them out. Stupice rates as good chicken food on my scale.

[Ruth_10]

Maybe someday a cheap, home DNA analyzer kit will be available and we can at least say two varieties share, for example, 95% homology or something to that effect. There are *so* many variables that go into the end product (the tomato).

We grew EF, Marianna's Peace, and Brandywine Sudduth strain side by side this summer. BW and EF seemed most similar to each other in terms of plant characteristics and taste, but there were difference in maturity (EF first, then MP, folllowed by BW), productivity (MP>EF>BW), and taste (EF~>BW>MP, but this is splittiing hairs--all were superb). Of course, in a different season with different weather and a year or so older taste buds, they all might rank differently. But they'd all still be good!

[greggf]

Mantis,

Are your chickens still chooking up their Stupice? 8)

=gregg=

[mdvpc]

Mantis-There is Stupice, and there is Stupice. I have grown Stupice from 3 different seed sources, and they were not the same. One of them was great, and two were inferior. Where did you get your seed from? In my garden, the good Stupice was very good, the other two were not good at all.

[greggf]

Michael,

Where was the good Stupice from? Where was the not-so-good from?

=gregg=