Save Seed from BER Tomato?

[dfollett]

I've read that all tomatoes on the same plant have the same seed properties. If that is the case, is there a problem with saving seed from a tomato with BER that has ripened as opposed to the ones I'd like to eat?

[Chucker]

I don't usually let my BER tomatoes grow, but I think saving seeds from them is a good use for them. The seeds are fine.

[WhippoorwillG]

I save from BER tomatoes, especially if it is a prone variety. This year with all of the rain, a majority of the trialed paste varieties have near complete BER, so the only way I can continue the seedline without purchasing new stock it to use BER examples.

One thing I watch for is the maturity of the seeds. Depending upon how early the BER sets in, sometimes a portion of the seeds don't seem to mature to the point that they can germinate.

[Salsacharley]

I had 14 of my first Cream Sausage tomatoes afflicted with BER. I was unsure of whether to keep them on the plant or remove them, so I researched a bit and found a PDF from Alabama Cooperative Extension System (www.aces.edu) that recommends removing them, otherwise the damaged area could serve as an entry point for disease-causing bacteria or fungi. I was disappointed not only in the high number of BER fruit, but that I couldn't save the seeds.

Since then I began using Texas Tomato Food as fertilizer and have had no BER since.

Charley

[carolyn137]

I remove all BER affected tomatoes as they appear b/c it just takes more plant energy to ripen them when that energy could be more useful elsewhere on the plant.

And with over 3 K varieties grown I've never saved seeds from BER fruits, since those usually appear early in the season and later fruits do not have it.

if it were a very rare variety and all I had was one fruit i suppose I might save seeds, but BER causes destruction of tissues, and that includes seeds, so I'd try to save seeds from the top of the fruits, not the bottom, and hope like heck that that one fruit didnt have internal BER as well.

Carolyn

[Master_Gardener]

Why would you do this if you have a choice?

[joseph]

I do not save seeds from any plant that has BER. I choose to not grow tomatoes that have that type of genetic defect.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by joseph

I do not save seeds from any plant that has BER. I choose to not grow tomatoes that have that type of genetic defect.

Joseph, BER is not caused by a genetic defect. Variety X can have BER one year and next year not.

it's all about stresses to the plants early in the season. Some variables are too hot, too cold, too dry, too wet, too windy, too much N which causes rapid plant growth which is a stress to plants as well as growing in too rich soil for the same reason.

The varieties that seem to have less BER are cherry tomatoes, and probably b'c those are closest to the wild type from S.America.

As plants mature they can better handle the many stresses that can lead to BER which is why BER fruits are most often seen earlier in the season.

Carolyn

[joseph]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Joseph, BER is not caused by a genetic defect. Variety X can have BER one year and next year not.

it's all about stresses to the plants early in the season.

I consider the inability to handle stress well to be a genetic defect, especially when it leads to BER. It is clear to me that some families of tomatoes routinely produce BER. It's like BER is a genetic marker for those clades of tomatoes. My strategy regarding BER is simple: If a plant suffers from BER at any time during its life then it is chopped out immediately, and its children are not allowed to grow in my garden. I really don't have the patience, money, or time to coddle genetically weak plants. If a tomato can't produce non-rotten fruit in my garden under varying conditions from year-to-year, then it doesn't belong in my garden. It's easier to modify my tomato genome by selecting for non-predisposed genes than it is to modify my soil, climate, irrigation, or practices.

I might have a different philosophy if every tomato I ever grew had BER. But since only certain families produce rotten fruit, it is easy to call those families genetically defective for my garden.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by joseph

I consider the inability to handle stress well to be a genetic defect, especially when it leads to BER. It is clear to me that some families of tomatoes routinely produce BER. It's like BER is a genetic marker for those clades of tomatoes. My strategy regarding BER is simple: If a plant suffers from BER at any time during its life then it is chopped out immediately, and its children are not allowed to grow in my garden. I really don't have the patience, money, or time to coddle genetically weak plants. If a tomato can't produce non-rotten fruit in my garden under varying conditions from year-to-year, then it doesn't belong in my garden. It's easier to modify my tomato genome by selecting for non-predisposed genes than it is to modify my soil, climate, irrigation, or practices.

I might have a different philosophy if every tomato I ever grew had BER. But since only certain families produce rotten fruit, it is easy to call those families genetically defective for my garden.

Joseph, I don't want to prolong this much more but what do you mean when you say that
certain families produce rotten fruit viz BER.

You keep saying that you believe that BER is a genetic disease, but there are no such genes.

The inability to handle stress is not genetically determined.

As I said above, variety X can have BER fruits one year and the same variety the next year it will have none. Or persons growing X in one part of the country or another can have BER when others do not.

And plants that do have BER fruits can be of ALL types, det, indet, PL. RL, and are not puny spindly plants that you seem to feel are genetically defective.

If you go to the Rick Center at UC Davis website and do a search for genes associated with BER I doubt you'll find any at all/

At least give me a B+ for trying to help/

Carolyn

[joseph]

Carolyn: I value your contribution to this forum, and enjoy corresponding with you. I am delighted to read your posts and definitely assign an A rating to them.

I am holistic in how I view my plants. Mendelian genetics has not been very helpful to me as a farmer and plant breeder. I believe that is because there are tens of thousands of genes in every species, and each gene has an influence over every other gene. And there are epigenetic and organelle factors that are also inherited.

[Warning: Technical jargon alert!!!] I am certain that if a meticulous QTL analysis was done on tomatoes, that certain loci would be found that contribute some percentage each to the rate at which certain tomato families manifest BER. And the families that I am calling genetically weak have a higher percentage of those influences stacked up one on top of another. For example, in my garden, BER pretty much only occurs in paste/roma tomatoes, and especially among those that have a pointy tip. I suspect that the pasty trait, and the pointy tip would show up in a QTL analyis as being more likely to produce BER. Perhaps there are other traits that contribute such as nutrient uptake by the roots, or shape/size of the veins, etc.

So when I write about a plant being genetically weak (in regards to BER), I am considering the entire system. As far as I can tell, the ability to handle stress is a multi-gene effect. It is not driven by a single gene, but by a multitude of genes working together or against each other.

The Dixon Springs Agricultural Center reports that (averaged over many growing seasons) that certain cultivars are more susceptible to BER than others. That can only be due to genetics. They might not know if a particular gene is responsible, but statistically, certain cultivars are genetically less resistant to BER. I choose to not grow varieties that are susceptible in my garden.

The Rick Center at UC Davis lists 1248 genes. I think that the number of genes in the tomato genome is around 35,000, so only about 4% of the tomato genes have been named and included in the Rick Center's list of tomato genes.

Here's QTL studies I found that document certain genes being associated with BER:

Round fruit allele of fs8.1 is associated with reduced incidence of blossom-end rot in tomato fruit "... most round fruit showed reduced incidence of blossom-end rot (BER) compared to the elongated fruit..."

Tolerance to salt stress and blossom-end rot in an introgression line, IL8-3, of tomato "... tolerance to blossom-end rot was found to be present as a dominant trait..."

Dynamic Alternations in Cellular and Molecular Components during Blossom-End Rot Development in Tomatoes Expressing sCAX1, a Constitutively Active Ca2+/H+ Antiporter from Arabidopsis "The results indicate that the high expression of the sCAX1 gene reduces ... leading to BER symptom development in the fruit tissue."

What if a particular cultivar contained the form of all three of these genes that is associated with increased BER? I would certainly call that a genetically weak plant (in regards to BER).

[bbjm]

What about saving seeds from a catfaced tomato? I did some searching on this and found one website that said not to bc they are more likely to be cross pollinated. They argued that the chances are higher bc catfacing is the result of fused blossoms, but I'm pretty sure most my catfaced tomatoes were single blossoms.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by bbjm

What about saving seeds from a catfaced tomato? I did some searching on this and found one website that said not to bc they are more likely to be cross pollinated. They argued that the chances are higher bc catfacing is the result of fused blossoms, but I'm pretty sure most my catfaced tomatoes were single blossoms.

With this I would agree.

Fused blossoms give rise to one fruit and each of those blossoms have a chance of being crosspollinated, and this has long been known, even before they were renamed megablooms.

So don't save seeds from fruits that originated from fused blossoms.

it's true that not all catfacing results from fused blossoms, though, and is usually seen with large fruited varieties and is variety dependent.

Other factors that can increase the chances of catfacing are abnormally cold weather during flowering,high soil N levels and any disturbance to the flowering parts during pollen shedding

Carolyn

[WhippoorwillG]

I agree that there are too many choices out there to keep trying to make lemonade out of rotten lemons. However, I cant always rule out that a portion of the field didnt get ph adjusted properly or BER was caused due to extreme weather conditions. I don't credit it to defective genetics in most cases, just a smaller range of ideal growing conditions tolerated by a particular variety.

I also have an unhealthy obsession with saving seed from varieties as long as they are not proven spitters. That doesnt mean I will devote any garden space to them next year, rather it gives me options for the future.

As for catfacing and fused blossoms, there is a youtube video of Tom Wagner discussing the best blooms to select for breeding and also some mention of seedsaving (if memory serves). I think it has to do with a wider window of time for pollination due to uneven anther/stigma maturity, and by extension cross pollination. Those blooms also tend to have a much larger stigmas giving more surface area for pollination.

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[Tania]

I never saves seeds from a tomato with BER. Not because I believe you shouldn't - just because I almost never have BER on any of the varieties I grow. (And by now, I think I grew over 1500 varieties)

Not sure what it is that I 'do right', but BER does not bother my tomatoes, even the ones grown in smaller containers.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that it will continue this way!