In lieu of bees, a tiny pollinator

[cythaenopsis]

Because my containers are up on a 3rd floor balcony (fire escape), bees seldom visit. I have gotten a few yellow jackets and a wasp or two, but no bumble or carpenter bees that are known for aggressive pollen foraging.

A few weeks ago, I started noticing these tiny insects that look like flying ants. Like this one:



Sure enough, they go right for the tail end of the stamen, poking and prodding, getting pollen in all the right places. I didn't see any of these in the 1st half of the summer. I seem to be getting more fruit set than before.

Does anyone here know what these insects are called? Are there any other smallish type flying insects that also aid with pollination?

[carolyn137]

I don't know what the one is that you show, but what I do know is that one of the most prevalent pollinators of tomato blossoms are Halictid bees, aka sweat bees, and they are so tiny that seldom do folks even see them.

http://www.southernexposure.com/isol...es-ezp-35.html

Above is an excellent article about NCP (natural cross pollination) that was witten by Dr. Jeff McCormack, the former owner of SESE, and I've linked to it here many times in the past.

Hope it helps,

Carolyn

[cythaenopsis]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I don't know what the one is that you show, but what I do know is that one of the most prevalent pollinators of tomato blossoms are Halictid bees, aka sweat bees, and they are so tiny that seldom do folks even see them.

http://www.southernexposure.com/isol...es-ezp-35.html

Above is an excellent article about NCP (natural cross pollination) that was written by Dr. Jeff McCormack, the former owner of SESE, and I've linked to it here many times in the past.

Thanks for the link, Carolyn. Interesting read about NCP--I wasn't aware of the cross pollination problem. In observing the flowers on my plants, I've seen some with anther cones that fully cover the stigma, while others fall short with the stigma sticking out. Sounds like the later is more prone to NCP. Is a constructive technique to trim off blossoms that look like good possibilities for NCP? (of course I mean on a small scale, like specialized heirloom tomato growing).

The critter I spotted is a little smaller than a hoverfly. I've not seen a flying ant in a long while, but it very much reminded me of one. I'm curious if it's munching on the anther cone like the halictid bee does. I've seen some blossoms with anther cones that appeared unnaturally shortened, but that was earlier in the season. I'll have to be more deliberately observant.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by cythaenopsis

Thanks for the link, Carolyn. Interesting read about NCP--I wasn't aware of the cross pollination problem. In observing the flowers on my plants, I've seen some with anther cones that fully cover the stigma, while others fall short with the stigma sticking out. Sounds like the later is more prone to NCP. Is a constructive technique to trim off blossoms that look like good possibilities for NCP? (of course I mean on a small scale, like specialized heirloom tomato growing).

The critter I spotted is a little smaller than a hoverfly. I've not seen a flying ant in a long while, but it very much reminded me of one. I'm curious if it's munching on the anther cone like the halictid bee does. I've seen some blossoms with anther cones that appeared unnaturally shortened, but that was earlier in the season. I'll have to be more deliberately observant.

Since stigmas are exerted after normal self pollenization I have trouble determining if a particular variety normally has exerted stigmas/

Actually blossoms are usually self pollenized as the style moves upward, even before the blossom is even open/

I have never looked at individul blossoms on a plant to try and decide if they should be removed since as I said above they are naturally exerted at the end of self pollenization.

Stigmas can also exert due to weather conditions as well.

Carolyn

[joseph]

I use a 20X magnifying glass to monitor tomato blossoms. I am selecting for more open flowers each generation.

Some anther cones don't fuse together completely, so the stigma is sitting there easily accessible. Other times (on very young flowers) the tip of the anther cone is very loose and open, or the stigma pokes out a long ways.

I'll sit in the tomato patch for hours, watching which plants are attractive to pollinators (mostly bumblebees in my garden), and then use those plants as pollen donors. I want to encourage lots of pollinators and natural crossing in my tomatoes.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by joseph

I use a 20X magnifying glass to monitor tomato blossoms. I am selecting for more open flowers each generation.

Some anther cones don't fuse together completely, so the stigma is sitting there easily accessible. Other times (on very young flowers) the tip of the anther cone is very loose and open, or the stigma pokes out a long ways.

I'll sit in the tomato patch for hours, watching which plants are attractive to pollinators (mostly bumblebees in my garden), and then use those plants as pollen donors. I want to encourage lots of pollinators and natural crossing in my tomatoes.

Joseph, you've posted here and elsewhere about creating landraces by encouraging pollinators and cross pollination.

But I'm sure you also know that most are very concerned about NCP in terms of seed purity at a level they need/want for whatever reasons in terms of the seeds that they save.

The proverbial different strokes for different folks issue.

Carolyn

[beeman]

Originally Posted by cythaenopsis

Does anyone here know what these insects are called? Are there any other smallish type flying insects that also aid with pollination?

I don't know that one, but there are quite literally dozens of solitary bees, all of which are after pollen rather than honey. Pound for pound they are more effective pollinators than the honey bees we all know.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by beeman

I don't know that one, but there are quite literally dozens of solitary bees, all of which are after pollen rather than honey. Pound for pound they are more effective pollinators than the honey bees we all know.

Interesting fact but tomato blossoms do not contain nectar/ The bees are after pollen as a protein source/

Carolyn

[cythaenopsis]

I can see a mix of approaches. With uncommon heirlooms where purity is paramount, you focus on the avoidance of NCP, while with other very common varieties you might want to experiment, knowing that there are plenty of other sources capable of providing pure strains. Does that make sense?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by cythaenopsis

I can see a mix of approaches. With uncommon heirlooms where purity is paramount, you focus on the avoidance of NCP, while with other very common varieties you might want to experiment, knowing that there are plenty of other sources capable of providing pure strains. Does that make sense?

Not just uncommon varieties but ANY varieties that you might wish to trade with, make seed offers with, send to friends or list with SSE, or similar.

It's true that I never bagged blossoms for the hundreds of varieties I've listed in the SSE YEarbooks, but from feedback I know of less than 10 that had been X pollinated.

Also, for just home use many, not all, do not bag or use geographic isolation.

Carolyn

[joseph]

I am philosophically opposed to what I consider the current mega-ag fad of placing high value on extremely inbred varieties of plants. Considering the history of agriculture, that seems to be a pattern that leads over and over again to crop failure and famine. [It's currently happening with honey bees, wheat, and coffee.] I have adapted a different strategy for my garden, and I mention sometimes in forums that I don't believe in plant purity. (I also don't value history or stories about cultivars.)

I am very skeptical about any sort of heirloom seed preservation attempts, because it seems to me that all varieties are doomed eventually to become so highly inbred as to be essentially useless. Based on my experience growing heirloom tomatoes, it seems that most current heirloom selections are already at that stage. But I don't feel any desire to badmouth people's preservation attempts. I do things differently in my garden. My collaboration network of landrace growers does things differently.

My seeds are traded far and wide, and they are valued BECAUSE of the diversity: Because of the possibility that many genetically diverse naturally occurring hybrids might be discovered among the offspring. The seed purity movement that really picked up steam in about the 1970s has pretty much run its course, and human scale farmers and gardeners are returning to the more traditional methods of growing genetically diverse plants and adapting the population to each garden via survival of the fittest selection.

I preserve genes. I don't preserve any particular arrangement of those genes. The genes can rearrange themselves at will to provide what I require from my plants.

So what if we have lost 10,000 cultivars of sweet corn in the past hundred years? (made up number) This year on my farm I grew 10,000 genetically unique varieties of sweet corn. I grew 2000 genetically unique varieties of muskmelons. My collaborative network of landrace growers grew millions of new varieties of vegetables this summer, including tens of thousands of new and unique varieties of tomatoes. The seeds that we save from these plants are varieties for today and for the future. They are not the varieties of a by-gone age.

With all that said, I think that there is a place for highly inbred plants that are essentially clones of each other. The place for that type of plants is in machine-harvested agriculture: Where a machine drives through the field, and the entire production of the field is harvested, cleaned, and packaged by machine, or with minimal human intervention. Plants that are essentially clones of each other are perfect for that sort of a farming operation.

And you don't ever have to worry about me listing with SSE. Their rules only allow highly inbred seed to be shared. I still laugh my head off at how horrified the SSE curator was when I corresponded with him about including a landrace in the catalog!!!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by joseph

I am philosophically opposed to what I consider the current mega-ag fad of placing high value on extremely inbred varieties of plants. Considering the history of agriculture, that seems to be a pattern that leads over and over again to crop failure and famine. [It's currently happening with honey bees, wheat, and coffee.] I have adapted a different strategy for my garden, and I mention sometimes in forums that I don't believe in plant purity. (I also don't value history or stories about cultivars.)

I am very skeptical about any sort of heirloom seed preservation attempts, because it seems to me that all varieties are doomed eventually to become so highly inbred as to be essentially useless. Based on my experience growing heirloom tomatoes, it seems that most current heirloom selections are already at that stage. But I don't feel any desire to badmouth people's preservation attempts. I wouldn't even have said this much about it if the forum moderator hadn't extended an invitation.

My seeds are traded far and wide, and they are valued BECAUSE of the diversity: Because of the possibility that many genetically diverse naturally occurring hybrids might be discovered among the offspring. The seed purity movement that really picked up steam in about the 1970s has pretty much run its course, and human scale farmers and gardeners are returning to the more traditional methods of growing genetically diverse plants and adapting the population to each garden via survival of the fittest selection.

I preserve genes. I don't preserve any particular arrangement of those genes. The genes can rearrange themselves at will to provide what I require from my plants.

So what if we have lost 10,000 cultivars of sweet corn in the past hundred years? (made up number) This year on my farm I grew 10,000 genetically unique varieties of sweet corn. I grew 2000 genetically unique varieties of muskmelons. My collaborative network of landrace growers grew millions of new varieties of vegetables this summer, including tens of thousands of new and unique varieties of tomatoes. The seeds that we save from these plants are varieties for today and for the future. They are not the varieties of a by-gone age.

With all that said, I think that there is a place for highly inbred plants that are essentially clones of each other. The place for that type of plants is in machine-harvested agriculture: Where a machine drives through the field, and the entire production of the field is harvested, cleaned, and packaged by machine, or with minimal human intervention. Plants that are essentially clones of each other are perfect for that sort of a farming operation.

And you don't ever have to worry about me listing with SSE. Their rules only allow highly inbred seed to be shared. I still laugh my head off at how horrified the SSE curator was when I corresponded with him about including a landrace in the catalog!!!

Just a few points Joseph.

First, tomatoes are inbreeders, but don't show inbreeding depression. Please check Google on that. Many varieties that were pre-1800 and are still extant, and many from the 1800's are still the same as they were back then. Lots of info on that and don;t forget to look at all the varieties from Andrew Livingston b'c we have his book describing them in detail. Can see Victory Seeds for that. Taste of those varieties, no way to know since it's just as difficult today for someone to tell someone else about the taste of a variety.

Just curious when you said that the Forum Moderator extended you an invitation to post0. If you go to the bottom of this page and click on Moderators you'll see there are only two Global Moderators who can make changes in any Forum, that's Craig L ( nctomatoman) and myself. Craig doesn't have time to read posts b'c he's so involved with the Dwarf Project and trying to get his book done. So it's just me trying to read as much as I can.

And I know that I didn't extend an invitation to you. If you look at that Moderator list you'll see that there is no dedicated Mod for this General Discussion Forum/

About SSE. There is no Curator for the catalog, really, varieties to be included are chosen by more than one SSE staff person. I used to proof the tomato section of the catalog. but haven't done it in a long time. You're the first person I know of who asked to have something included in the public catalog. And I know of no rules that SSE has that says that only highly inbred varieties can be offered.

If the above was true you wouldn't see landraces listed in the SSE Yearbooks.

The Yearbook ( an SSE publication)is different and for instance Tess's Landrace has been consistently listed for quite a few years. A look at Tania's page for it will show that there are several places where seeds can be puchased.

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/T...b=General_Info

All I'm trying to say is that tomatoes do not show inbreeding depresssion, perhaps minimal if you read the scientific publications,lots of Google links on that,. as opposed for instance to corn. So tomato varieties are not on the brink of losing stability. Sure some wrong versions of a known variety show up but that's usually do to improper seed saving and/ or spontaneous mutation/

You really don't have to defend what you do with landraces to me or anyone else as you've done here and elsewhere

it's what you've chosen to do and that's fine, and if some folks disagree with some of what you write, that should be fine as well since each of us should respect the opinions of others.

Carolyn

[joseph]

The heirloom and open pollinated tomatoes that I have grown suffer from symptoms typical of inbreeding depression: They grow poorly and lack vigor. The stunning success of the hybrid tomato market is another indication that heirloom and OP tomatoes suffer from inbreeding depression.

The domestic tomato genome only captured 5% of the available genetic diversity of the wild tomato genome. So domestic tomatoes are genetically fragile to start with. (One of our most fragile crops.) To add 50 generations of inbreeding to the genetic bottleneck we created during domestication can't be doing any favors to heirloom tomato varieties.

Domestic tomatoes have partially adapted to growing as inbreeders, but that doesn't mean that it's their best or preferred reproductive strategy. Wild tomatoes are cross pollinating.

[cythaenopsis]

I personally see no reason why both approaches can't co-exist, as long as they are both respected--meaning, if someone is obtaining seed, they should know where it comes from and how it was procured, in addition to the degree of cultivar stability.

I absolutely do agree in the need for bio diversity. In our endeavors to provide massive amounts of foods for humans using high tech mechanisms and processes, we have inadvertently caused some problems by not paying attention to crop diversity. "Nature knows best". Diversity is the key to our genetic past and future.

However, with some vegetables/fruits like tomatoes, if there is an inherent quality for a plant variety to perpetuate without the need for eventual mutation or adaptation, then it's quite possible for extenuating natural circumstances to exist where the cultivar could remain pure. We humans are only helping them to achieve that, exploiting their natural abilities.

But the crop purity is an interesting thing to consider for other vegetables/fruits. For instance, do the McIntosh apples we are growing today taste and look the same as the ones found in the early 1800's? Or have there been changes introduced by natural means? Certainly, I expect some changes exist that were man made, due to agricultural needs (despite the McIntosh still being a delicate fruit that will easily bruise, are they actually firmer than they used to be to better survive transportation and remain in a resalable condition?). I wonder how much they resemble and if the early cultivars are still preserved somewhere.

[cythaenopsis]

Part of the reason for holding onto a given heirloom variety for purity is the enjoyment of its particular combination of characteristics and their consistency from one grow cycle to the next. I can't comment on inbreeding depression as this is beyond my understanding and experience.

My hope is that one day we'll have such a deep enough understanding of plant genetics that one could "guide" a certain kind of cross pollination of any select cultivars to achieve desirable results (robust growth, natural disease resistance, and highly pleasing taste) without falling into inbreeding traps. While we do have highly desirable heirloom varieties current available, there's no reason why future mutations wouldn't be able to appear with equally or even more desirable characteristics. But the unpredictability of it all at this point makes a strong impetus for holding onto established cultivars.