Hybrid-Heirlooms

[Doug9345]

This morning a was researching what small pear tomatoes there are when I can across Baby Bottle Red Pear which lists Territorial as the supplier. Googling it I came to California Hybrids as the claimed developer.

Here's what the problem I have with them. They have a whole page of what they list as Dr Kanti's Hybrid-Heirlooms. If you look at the page they are claiming or at least implying that they bred these. Quoting just two.

Green Zebra

Small Green Striped, Ovate, Heirloom-Hybrid, Indeterminate
DAYS TO MATURITY: 62
WEIGHT: 85-140 GRAMS
Small round tomatoes are green with stripes when ripe. The flavor and texture is a sweet surprise! Heirloom Hybrid bred using authentic heirloom stock.

San Marzano

Red Roma, Heirloom-Hybrid, Indeterminate
DAYS TO MATURITY: 61
WEIGHT: 110+ GRAMS
A hybrid with genetics from the classic Italian heirloom–our San Marzano is a step above your typical roma. For classic Italian flavor with an extra kick, the San Marzano is perfect -great in sauces and baked dishes. High yield.

Given the amount of disinformation on the website I have to assume that Baby Bottle Red Pear is some other tomato that they had nothing to do with them and that they renamed.


I just don't get it. Is this just resume padding. While you may find enough gullible people in the retail market to make a living I don't see how this applies to selling to seed companies. Any one in the tomato seed business should know what Green Zebra is.



Even more interesting they have the same address as US Agriseed.

[GunnarSK]

Originally Posted by Doug9345

Any one in the tomato seed business should know what Green Zebra is.

Even more interesting they have the same address as US Agriseed.

All heiloom started their "life" as hybrids. Now they are at least OP and maybe more. If you have a fixed or moving cutoff date, tht determines it. If you only recognize varieties which have been passed down in a family or within a community as herlooms (as does Carolyn), things are worse. I can't speak to this particular instance.

[joseph]

I routinely make heirloom-hybrids with corn: crossing an open pollinated heirloom with an elite modern hybrid. I use them in my breeding projects and for market. I also make landrace-hybrids: crossing my landraces with elite modern germplasm. That way I get the best of both worlds: The reliability of the old fashioned corn, and I get to take advantage of recent research into higher yields.

[Hermitian]

Just to clear things up:
Hybrid is a taxonomic term from biology. There are many different kinds of hybrids, ranging from F1 through "hybrid species".
Heirloom is defined by U.S. case law as a marketing (labeling) term. It means "off-patent stable hybrid".

If you feel differently, please consult a peer-reviewed textbook on the subject before throwing flames at me!

[ScottinAtlanta]

Off-patent stable hybrid! It takes a lawyer to turn something good into something soulless. Thank goodness we have a more usable approach defined by Craig and Carolyn, as follows;

1. Commercial Heirlooms: Open-pollinated varieties introduced before 1940, or tomato varieties more than 50 years in circulation.
2. Family Heirlooms: Seeds that have been passed down for several generations through a family.
3. Created Heirlooms: Crossing two known parents (either two heirlooms or an heirloom and a hybrid) and dehybridizing the resulting seeds for how ever many years/generations it takes to eliminate the undesirable characteristics and stabilize the desired characteristics, perhaps as many as 8 years or more.
4. Mystery Heirlooms: Varieties that are a product of natural cross-pollination of other heirloom varieties.

[travis]

Scott, if one accepts definition #3, "Created Heirloom," as a stabilized recombination of the hybrid cross of two known heirloom varieties, then one might conceivably accept a definition for "Heirloom Hybrid" as the original F1 combination of the cross.

And whether or not an individual accepts either definition, or accepts other definitions often given for heirloom tomatoes, one must readily accept that the words "heirloom tomato" now is a widely employed marketing nomenclature.

[ScottinAtlanta]

Yes, I do accept your final statement, but language and precision is important to me and many here, and I do not accept the misuse of terms to mislead the innocent buyers. I do think that some sites actively and knowingly mislead consumers into thinking that a tomato is an older and proven variety, when it is actually a recent variety, often with trivial or non-existent variations to varieties already on the market.

[amideutch]

And how does Webster's define Heirloom.

"Something of special value handed down from one generation to another."

Which should be the only criteria to describe a heirloom vegetable or fruit.

This is a quote from Tom Wagner;

Anytime someone keeps a variety isolated from others for an extended time, the tomato variety should be considered unique in many ways.

This to me is what Websters definition of Heirloom is all about when talking Heirloom tomatoes.

Not Commercial, Created, or Mystery but something that is very special handed down from generation to generation.

My two cents,

Ami

[travis]

Scott and Ted: I am not arguing the true meaning of "heirloom." In fact, I agree with you and others that an heirloom is a treasured possession that is handed down from one generation of human beings to the next generation of human beings.

What my point is that if one accepts the "created heirloom" tomato definition as a stabilized recombination resulting from the cross of two heirloom varieties, then what should one call the F1 that initiated such a recombination? Specifically, when wishing to successfully market such a product, what should one call the F1 heirloom x heirloom cross?

Yes, you could simply call it an F1 hybrid, same as if you had crossed an F1 hybrid x another F1 hybrid, or an open pollinated breeding line x another open pollinated breeding line, or an open pollinated commercial standard x another open pollinated commercial standard.

But when crossing an heirloom tomato x another heirloom tomato, it's clear that particular cross will stimulate a lot more interest among heirloom tomato collectors/growers than say Porterhouse F1 x Big Beef F1. Will you give me that?

So, if a breeder/vendor has established a company that produces and markets hybrid tomato seed that is in fact the product of crossing pairs of heirloom tomatoes, is it unexpected that such a company might categorize such products as "Heirloom Hybrid" tomatoes, or maybe "Hybrid Heirloom" tomatoes? (Edit: I'm trying to remember what a couple of other vendors have begun calling such products ... something like "heirloom style hybrids" or some such thing. I'll go look at a few catalogs and get back on that.)

I mean you all know that when products are described with an excess of dry, technical terminology, the customer generally is confused or turned off.

Another turn-off to the general home gardening public is wordy and puritanical horticulturalists. Most gardeners simply want something reliable, disease resistant, adapted to their growing conditions, beautiful, tasty, productive, etc. In other words ... success rather than adherence to some stodgy vernacular standard.

[ScottinAtlanta]

"adherence to some stodgy vernacular standard."

I must say I disagree almost entirely with this idea. The role of language is to bring clarity so that people know more about what they are doing. Without adherence to a clear rule about terminology, we lose much of the information we need to make wise choices.

I think the modern world fuzzes too much and loses much beauty and precision as a result. At its worst, we get terms that are actively misleading.

No, we need a good framework of terms so that we can communicate with each other, while respecting the choice of each person.

[travis]

Strict adherence is stark. Black and white. Lacking in color. Lacking in flare.

In diversity there is beauty. A little anarchy is good in art. Colloquial language has more color and flare. Maybe I'm even using "colloquial" incorrectly, but you know what I mean, even if I do use it not in strict accordance with Webster.

Life shouldn't be lived in black and white terms. Life is organic and ever changing, fluid, mobile in its structure, growth, environment. Evolutionary.

[amideutch]

Travis, understand where you are coming from. Once the two heirlooms are crossed then the resultant F1 would not be an heirloom according to the definition. It would be a new "OP" variety whose parents are both heirloom varieties which should by all means be stated.

A lot of this has to do with marketing hype as you mentioned. Unfortunately the true meaning of Heirloom is lost in the marketing game shuffle and takes away from the true heirloom varieties and what they represent.

As far as I see it there should be only three categories of tomatoes as far as commercial seed sources are concerned. Heirloom, OP and Hybrid (Not OP). What they put into the variety description is up to them as far as describing their product. As sub-catagories naturally is where the cherry, beefsteak, plum, early, late etc. come into play.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Ami

[Hermitian]

Thanks for your comments everyone.

[carolyn137]

There is NO ONE definition of a tomato heirloom that is universally accepted.

Therefore I'm exempting myself from ,perhaps, a woman can always change her mind, from the current discussion.

At the time Craig and I wrote those various definitions it was an attempt to distinguish between the backgrounds of various heirlooms as a way of folks understanding better and that was many many years ago we did that.

IMO there will never be a uniform definition that fits all the various backgrounds. Tom Wagner and I have discussed his claim that something treasured is an heirloom, thus he wants to call his varieties heirlooms.

I look around in my LR and see some Shaker pieces, since I was raised in a Shaker built home and yes, I see them as antiques/heirlooms, call them treasured or what you want to, but they aren't tomatoes.

Carolyn

[Sun City Linda]

Ami - My mind can only wrap around your simple categories of Heirloom, OP and Hybrid. I love it! It seems to me the seed and food industries are busy incorporating the term Heirloom into everything they can these days. I fully expect to see "Heirloom Hotdogs" any time now.....