Ripping up the backyard lawn and have a few questions

[socalgardengal]

I will be tearing out the backyard lawn and making a garden area for tomatoes and other veggies. This is my first time ever attempting something this big. Right now it has some grass and weeds. Should I till it or just dig up the first few inches and trash it? I know that I have to add compost but is it ok to mix that in with the dirt that's already there or should I dig deeper and toss it? I guess what I'm asking is what steps would you take to tackle this project? I've read about what to do but I would like some kind of direction. This will be my second season growing and I was using containers before. The area is approx. 20'X10' Feeling a bit overwelmed about starting. Help!!! Thank you

[Labradors2]

First I would mark out where the veggie garden is going to be using string and stakes.

I'd be inclined to dig out all the grass and weeds. Make sure that you get all the roots! For example, little pieces of Dandelion or Crabgrass left behind can regenerate! Remove all that and leave the soil behind. You can then augment the existing soil with compost/manure. Depending on your enthusiasm and your budget, you can either put a load of manure/compost down in a thick layer on top of the clean soil, or you can dig a big hole for each plant and put a large amount of compost in each hole as you go.

Hope this helps,
Linda

[habitat_gardener]

If it's bermuda grass, get a sod cutter and remove it all. Bermuda grass has long rhizomes and stolons and can be propagated from a tiny piece of either one! I've heard of people digging down 6 inches and sending it all away, to avoid the chance of reinfestation.

Otherwise, sheet mulching is the way to go. With sheet mulching, you don't need to till and you don't need to dig up any grass. I've used either cardboard (1-2 layers) or newspaper (3-5 layers thick), overlapped well, covered with whatever mulch/organics I could get free. The newspaper or cardboard is a light-blocking layer intended to keep weeds from germinating. I've used tree trimmings (free from arborists -- call around to find out who's working in your neighborhood), coffee grounds (free from Starbucks, but has to be well mixed with other materials so it doesn't form a water-repellent layer), horse manure (free from horse farms), straw (free after halloween). Some towns also offer free compost or mulch. I've used 4 inches (over tree or shrub roots) up to 12 inches (in paths where bindweed and bermuda grass were a problem).

This is the ideal season to do it, assuming the rains will eventually come. Rain will help the mulchy stuff degrade into compost, eventually. I've known people at the community garden who cover their plots with a 6-8 inch layer of tree trimmings in late fall, which turns into lovely compost in early spring.

You can plant directly in it, if you need to. If I wanted to plant seedlings right away, I'd get some potting soil or planting mix and make a little soil pocket for the seedling. If I wanted to plant a shrub, I'd dig through the cardboard/newspaper to reach the original soil.

You can look up "sheet mulching" or "lasagna gardening" online.

p.s. In my area, the only weeds that are persistent are bindweed, oxalis, and bermuda grass. But sheet mulching will slow them down considerably. If they come back, it's very easy to pull them out through the 6-12 inches of mulch they will have to struggle through. Any other weeds are stopped by the sheet mulching.

[Labradors2]

I'd agree with sheet mulching or soil-sterilization using clear plastic if it was an established lawn, but did you look at the picture? It seems to me as if a little elbow grease would get the job done in short measure and then our friend could be growing veggies in a weed-free bed. I've had experience growing in a brand new flower bed with some crab grass roots left behind and, even with landscaping fabric covered in bark chips (which I don't recommend BTW) that crab grass found it's way towards the light and continued to haunt me!

JMHO,
Linda

Originally Posted by habitat_gardener

If it's bermuda grass, get a sod cutter and remove it all. Bermuda grass has long rhizomes and stolons and can be propagated from a tiny piece of either one! I've heard of people digging down 6 inches and sending it all away, to avoid the chance of reinfestation.

Otherwise, sheet mulching is the way to go. With sheet mulching, you don't need to till and you don't need to dig up any grass. I've used either cardboard (1-2 layers) or newspaper (3-5 layers thick), overlapped well, covered with whatever mulch/organics I could get free. The newspaper or cardboard is a light-blocking layer intended to keep weeds from germinating. I've used tree trimmings (free from arborists -- call around to find out who's working in your neighborhood), coffee grounds (free from Starbucks, but has to be well mixed with other materials so it doesn't form a water-repellent layer), horse manure (free from horse farms), straw (free after halloween). Some towns also offer free compost or mulch. I've used 4 inches (over tree or shrub roots) up to 12 inches (in paths where bindweed and bermuda grass were a problem).

This is the ideal season to do it, assuming the rains will eventually come. Rain will help the mulchy stuff degrade into compost, eventually. I've known people at the community garden who cover their plots with a 6-8 inch layer of tree trimmings in late fall, which turns into lovely compost in early spring.

You can plant directly in it, if you need to. If I wanted to plant seedlings right away, I'd get some potting soil or planting mix and make a little soil pocket for the seedling. If I wanted to plant a shrub, I'd dig through the cardboard/newspaper to reach the original soil.

You can look up "sheet mulching" or "lasagna gardening" online.

p.s. In my area, the only weeds that are persistent are bindweed, oxalis, and bermuda grass. But sheet mulching will slow them down considerably. If they come back, it's very easy to pull them out through the 6-12 inches of mulch they will have to struggle through. Any other weeds are stopped by the sheet mulching.

[Worth1]

Sell the place and move to New York state you can buy 20 times if not more with the money.
For some time now I have considered buying a summer home there.

Seriously I would abandon the soil and build up where you are.
Think raised beds.
Even on the patio.

Worth

[FarmerShawn]

It may depend on the nature and quality of the existing soil. It looks from the photo like it grows stuff ok already. It also might depend on what is available to you. If it was me (and I'm a lazy old coot) if a tiller was available, I'd tear it up with the tiller, spread some compost, if that was available, till it again, then cover with the cardboard or newspaper under whatever mulch is available, as already described. The existing grass and roots will decompose if they can't grow, adding to the soil richness, enhanced by the applied compost, and maintained by the decomposing mulch cover, which will be replenished regularly as needed. Minimal weeding, and it is a lot easier to put stuff down than it is to shovel it up and out. But that's just what I'd do.


There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[socalgardengal]

I like the idea of sheet mulching. I have to read up on that. Everything else sounds to labor intensive. Besides I'll probably be moving in the next 2 years anyways. We're renting this place til my youngest is out of high school. One of my neighbors has a landscape business so I could ask him for chips and clippings and the city has free mulch also but I don't know if I should trust that with all the round-up happy spraying people here.

[tlintx]

I actually kind of assume bermuda and crab grass are just one of the hazards of growing here. I mean, you can't keep the seeds out, so sooner or later you'll have to re-deal with it.

I've found that a layer of newspaper, thick, will smother all the grasses I've got. However, if you miss even an inch (or leave a gap between paper and, say, the border) the grass will crawl up over the paper and into whatever soft bed you've prepared.

I have made several raised beds using the newspaper/raised bed solution and it seems to be working. Do you know what's under the first few inches of dirt? If it's a relatively old residential area you could be looking at trash or pipes or wires. I think Worth had it right -- raised beds are awesome.

[Tracydr]

Originally Posted by tlintx

I actually kind of assume bermuda and crab grass are just one of the hazards of growing here. I mean, you can't keep the seeds out, so sooner or later you'll have to re-deal with it.

I've found that a layer of newspaper, thick, will smother all the grasses I've got. However, if you miss even an inch (or leave a gap between paper and, say, the border) the grass will crawl up over the paper and into whatever soft bed you've prepared.

I have made several raised beds using the newspaper/raised bed solution and it seems to be working. Do you know what's under the first few inches of dirt? If it's a relatively old residential area you could be looking at trash or pipes or wires. I think Worth had it right -- raised beds are awesome.

Good point. Laying the newspaper down before setting a raised bed frame on is important, however the newspaper doesn't last long in warmer climates. The psst two years, I've been fighting grass despite sheet mulching, I've found that adding water and manure to dirt in the south means Bermuda, even if it wasn't there to start.
Some parts of coastal CA, though are probably too cool for major Bermuda issues.

[socalgardengal]

Hmmmmm.... It is an older area. Probably built up in the 1920s or older. Maybe I should did a hole and see whats down there first.

[tlintx]

If you do, be really careful. When I decided to rip up some of our backyard for beds, I told my husband I was much too nervous to dig because of pipes and wires. He looked at me like I was nuts and asked, "how deep a hole are you digging?". Turns out it's perfectly normal here for pipes and such to be 6+ feet underground!

I've read about people having to put in raised beds or containers because of sand, broken glass, leftover construction debris, and general rubbish. When I finally got up the nerve to dig out a few inches as prep for a raised bed, I found an entire tree! It was carved into chunks and buried. Now I would do hugelculture right over it. I don't dig out beds anymore, just newspaper, bunch of compost-y bits, and the best dirt I can afford.

Speaking of which, a few years ago, when I was prepping my side beds, I used soil conditioner and it worked excellently mixed with the native clay, but last year, filling the raised beds, it was not anywhere near the same quality (bits of plastic and pallets). I've heard MG has gone downhill too in some regions. So be cautious and do lots of research. I think you're in a really good area for buying great soil mixes, though! Lots of cash crops.

The organic soil building forum is really full of good advice on that. Wish I'd followed it better when building my raised beds last year but I cheaped out! Don't be like me!

[socalgardengal]

Woweee a whole tree?!?!?! Here we have commercials about calling the gas and electric co. before you dig so I think I should do that. If I do just a raised bed , how tall should my boards be? Do the roots go down into the hard clay and rocks I have? Should I loosen up the soil underneath before I put cardboard and soil? Thank you for all the help everyone. I truly appreciate it

[KarenO]

If that was mine I would do a proper soil test in the garden area, mark out the garden and water it well . Tarp it over snugly with either a plastic tarp or thick black plastic and wait about four weeks . The heat underneath should kill most vegetation and weeds including many seeds . I would then work it up with a rototiller and then add a load of garden mix and manure mixing it in well and finally mulch between plants when the garden is planted. Even with all that I wouldn't expect greatness for several more years of additions of organic matter and diligent weeding. I am not really familiar with your area or soil but if that is a lawn I would be wary of the quality of the soil that is there. Hard to tell from the pic but it looks very sandy/ gravel-like almost. There is no easy or cheap way to build really good soil.

[KarenO]

Oops entered wrong

[socalgardengal]

We have sandy,rocky clay soil. TONS of rocks! So far the sheet/ lasagna with raised bed sounds the best for me. If I was going to be here for more than 2 years then I think I would just till up the area but it doesn't make sense for me at the moment. I have lots of cardboard since we just moved here 2 months ago. Just need to unpack everything. Lol.