should we treat seeds before planting?

Labradors2 · February 9, 2014

I'm thrilled with all the seeds that I received from the seed swap, but also a tad worried about possibly introducing new pathogens to my veggie garden

. I'd like to know if it would be advisable to treat the seeds before germinating them for a little insurance.

Bleach?
Hot water?

I don't really want to kill them though

.

Any advice? Comments?

Linda

joseph · February 9, 2014

Every packet of seeds that I receive gets tossed in the freezer for a few days. I do that in order to kill any seed born insects that might have hitched a ride on the package. I have enough of my own seed bugs. I don't need to be importing more.

**carolyn137** · February 9, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Labradors2

I'm thrilled with all the seeds that I received from the seed swap, but also a tad worried about possibly introducing new pathogens to my veggie garden

. I'd like to know if it would be advisable to treat the seeds before germinating them for a little insurance.

Bleach?
Hot water?

I don't really want to kill them though

.

Any advice? Comments?

Linda

Linda, of the thousands of varieties I've grown and shared seeds with others, one way or another, I have never treated the seeds, ever.

You and I live in a gardening zone where there are seldom soil borne systemic pathogens, such as Fusarium, Verticilllium, etc. If someone lives where the fungal systemic ones are common then yes, fermentation can lessen those pathogens adhered to the seed coat as well. I have yet to see good documentation for the efficacy of bleach or ANY of the oxidative methods as to eliminating those kinds of pathogens from thje seed surface.

What tomato diseases we have are the worldwide common foliage pathogens, the two fungal ones, Early Blight and Septoria Leaf Spot. Fermentation can lessen the fungal ones, adhered to seeds, but the two Bacterial ones, Bacterial Speck and Spot are in the endosperm of the seed so can't be eliminated except for special hot water treatment, And if you look up Hot water treatment you'll find that only a few commercial sites do that and then charge extra money for those seeds. You'll also see that it's not easy to do and can kill lots of seeds.

Of all my many tomato friends thru the years I don't know of one who even attempted to do hot water treatment at home.

So no, where you are I can 't see seeds needing any treatment at all other than fermentation and documentation for that I've posted here before, I think, from Dr. Helene Dillards results , or at least my chats with her when she was at the USDA station in Geneva, NY, and had grants from I think Campbells or Heinz, to do that work.

One caveat is that bleach can be used to help wake up very old seeds, but I prefer other methods for that.

Hope that helps,

Carolyn

Hermitian · February 9, 2014

Treat them with kindness.

amideutch · February 9, 2014

Most seed savers are pretty well schooled in the process and will normally ferment their seeds prior to cleaning and drying or in some cases will also clean their seeds with TSP or Oxyclean after the fermentation process prior to drying.

After receiving seeds in a trade you can figure out pretty much if your going to have problems just by eye-balling the seeds and how they were packaged. If you don't like the way they look you can toss them or isolate them and grow the seedlings/plants in containers if they are special or rare varieties.

Ami

Labradors2 · February 10, 2014

Many thanks for the replies. If Carolyn doesn't treat them, I guess that's good enough for me!

Ami, you are right that most people here know how to ferment their seeds, and looking at the ones I plan to grow (through a magnifying glass) they all look in excellent condition.

Joseph, thanks for reminding me that I have to put the beans in the freezer before planting. I didn't know that tomato seeds had seed-borne insects, and I wouldn't want to introduce moisture by freezing/thawing, but it would work for the ones I plan to germinate.

Linda

Doug9345 · February 10, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Labradors2

Many thanks for the replies. If Carolyn doesn't treat them, I guess that's good enough for me!

Ami, you are right that most people here know how to ferment their seeds, and looking at the ones I plan to grow (through a magnifying glass) they all look in excellent condition.

Joseph, thanks for reminding me that I have to put the beans in the freezer before planting. I didn't know that tomato seeds had seed-borne insects, and I wouldn't want to introduce moisture by freezing/thawing, but it would work for the ones I plan to germinate.

Linda

If you don't want to introduce moisture into the seeds from condensation when you take them out of the freezer out them in a sealed glass jar first. The condensation will all be on the outside of the jar when you take it out of the freezer.

**carolyn137** · February 10, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Labradors2

Many thanks for the replies. If Carolyn doesn't treat them, I guess that's good enough for me!

Ami, you are right that most people here know how to ferment their seeds, and looking at the ones I plan to grow (through a magnifying glass) they all look in excellent condition.

Joseph, thanks for reminding me that I have to put the beans in the freezer before planting. I didn't know that tomato seeds had seed-borne insects, and I wouldn't want to introduce moisture by freezing/thawing, but it would work for the ones I plan to germinate.

Linda

Linda, tomato seeds do not have seedborne insects, either adhered to the outside or in the endosperm.

Joseph was making a general statement about putting ALL seed packs he receives in the freezer.

My first experience with saving bean seeds, all those many years ago, was a shock and a wake up call. My mother was given some bean seeds, allegedly from Sweden and I was thrilled. Grew them out, saved the seeds and put them in a jar. Next Spring I went to get the jar and the bean seeds were LACE and white grubs, baby bean beetles ,crawling over everything.

From that day forward I always put my bean seed in the freezer for a couple of days, that's all that's needed to kill the bean Beetles that can be under the outer shell of bean seeds.

Carolyn

Labradors2 · February 10, 2014

Many thanks for explaining Carolyn.

I Googled the subject of seedborne insects on tomatoes and drew a blank.

I HAVE heeded the warning about bean seeds though! What a shock it must have been to find all those bean beetles in your stash!

I really like Doug's idea of placing the packets in an airtight jar before freezing them to keep the condensation on the outside of the jar and not on the seeds!

Linda

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Linda, tomato seeds do not have seedborne insects, either adhered to the outside or in the endosperm.

Joseph was making a general statement about putting ALL seed packs he receives in the freezer.

Carolyn

Worth1 · February 10, 2014

All of my corn meal and baking flour goes in the freezer so the critters wont hatch.

I dont go through enough of it to have to buy once a month like my mom did.

We had a 5 gallon can of flour at all times growing up.

I wont say anything about tomato seeds you have been informed by the best, I have nothing to offer.

Worth

bower · February 11, 2014

I have struggled with the same question, whether to bleach treat my own seeds and whether to bleach the seeds that I get from others.

I know my fermentation process takes 4-5 days and should be effective to kill bacterial or fungal pathogens. I could bleach right afterwards as many do, but it would be foolish to pretend that I live in a sterile environment and that a bleached seed packed in my home would be free of spores. I live in the woods, here... when I studied mycology we did some interesting experiments looking at our own house dust, and in micro we plated swabs from our hands after using the quaternary sterilant hand wash.... the woodland fungal spores are pretty persistent.

Also, one thing I learned in course work about human-pathogenic molds in buildings, is that they more you sterilize the surfaces, the more they are rapidly colonized by the nastiest stuff. It's easily explained by the 'empty niche' concept: when a sterilant is used to kill everything in a certain ecological niche, that niche will be rapidly colonized by anything that survived or was simply present in the environment and first to arrive, and/or most aggressive, to take advantage of a lovely empty niche which is free of competitors.

It's also true that spores that would be considered harmless in an ordinary ecological context can be pathogenic if they get out of hand without competition. It's true in human health, and makes sense for seed health too. I figure that a bleached seed which is then stored for sowing next year is subject to 'whatever' spores happened to land on em during drying and storage, without the normal community of beneficials that otherwise keep the balance in check (including the yeasts involved in the fermentation).

There is some research that showed reduced infection rates by applying Trichoderma harzanium to infected seeds as a pre-sowing treatment, BTW, and makes perfect sense in the context of microbial ecology.

Also I've read everything I could find about seed treatments, and certainly as regards the bleach (and maybe the hot water too) there is some reduction in seed viability for seeds treated prior to storage, but treatment just before sowing is reported to improve germination. So it makes more sense to bleach just before sowing, if you're going to do it, IMO.

The tricky thing is, with these big swaps, you don't know what procedure other people used. I am tempted to bleach treat before sowing, but the experts do say, don't bleach em twice.

I do think you got the best advice already - disease problems mostly show up early on and you just rogue the unhealthy plants to protect the others.

Labradors2 · February 11, 2014

Wow! Bower!

Thanks for the great explanation! Sounds excellent to me

.

It's just like using antibiotics or micro-biological cleaners, we upset the healthy balance and the bad guys can move in fast.

Linda

Tormato · February 11, 2014

All of the seeds in the swap (not including paper enveloped ones where I couldn't see) looked like they were fermented. The exception was just one pack which had sort of a generic description of "red cherry tomatoes". I didn't put that one pack back into the swap.

As for beans, before freezing them make sure they pass the "shatter test".

Gary

Labradors2 · February 11, 2014

Thanks Gary for making sure that the seeds all looked good - in addition to all the other work that you did to make the swap such a success!

Regarding the beans, do we have to hit them with a hammer before freezing them????

Linda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tormato

All of the seeds in the swap (not including paper enveloped ones where I couldn't see) looked like they were fermented. The exception was just one pack which had sort of a generic description of "red cherry tomatoes". I didn't put that one pack back into the swap.

As for beans, before freezing them make sure they pass the "shatter test".

Gary

Doug9345 · February 11, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Labradors2

Thanks Gary for making sure that the seeds all looked good - in addition to all the other work that you did to make the swap such a success!

Regarding the beans, do we have to hit them with a hammer before freezing them????

Linda

Only one. If you experiment with bean seed as it dries down you can learn to tell just how they sound and bounce on a table.

February 9, 2014	#1
Labradors2 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Ontario Posts: 3,896	should we treat seeds before planting? I'm thrilled with all the seeds that I received from the seed swap, but also a tad worried about possibly introducing new pathogens to my veggie garden . I'd like to know if it would be advisable to treat the seeds before germinating them for a little insurance. Bleach? Hot water? I don't really want to kill them though . Any advice? Comments? Linda

February 9, 2014	#4
Hermitian BANNED Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,112	Treat them with kindness. __________________ Richard _<\|\|>_

February 9, 2014	#5
amideutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Germany 49°26"N 07°36"E Posts: 5,041	Most seed savers are pretty well schooled in the process and will normally ferment their seeds prior to cleaning and drying or in some cases will also clean their seeds with TSP or Oxyclean after the fermentation process prior to drying. After receiving seeds in a trade you can figure out pretty much if your going to have problems just by eye-balling the seeds and how they were packaged. If you don't like the way they look you can toss them or isolate them and grow the seedlings/plants in containers if they are special or rare varieties. Ami __________________ Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘...Holy Crap .....What a ride!'

February 9, 2014	#2
joseph Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: Cache Valley, N/E of The Great Salt Lake Posts: 1,244	Every packet of seeds that I receive gets tossed in the freezer for a few days. I do that in order to kill any seed born insects that might have hitched a ride on the package. I have enough of my own seed bugs. I don't need to be importing more.

February 10, 2014	#6
Labradors2 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Ontario Posts: 3,896	Many thanks for the replies. If Carolyn doesn't treat them, I guess that's good enough for me! Ami, you are right that most people here know how to ferment their seeds, and looking at the ones I plan to grow (through a magnifying glass) they all look in excellent condition. Joseph, thanks for reminding me that I have to put the beans in the freezer before planting. I didn't know that tomato seeds had seed-borne insects, and I wouldn't want to introduce moisture by freezing/thawing, but it would work for the ones I plan to germinate. Linda

February 10, 2014	#10
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	All of my corn meal and baking flour goes in the freezer so the critters wont hatch. I dont go through enough of it to have to buy once a month like my mom did. We had a 5 gallon can of flour at all times growing up. I wont say anything about tomato seeds you have been informed by the best, I have nothing to offer. Worth

February 11, 2014	#11
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,794	I have struggled with the same question, whether to bleach treat my own seeds and whether to bleach the seeds that I get from others. I know my fermentation process takes 4-5 days and should be effective to kill bacterial or fungal pathogens. I could bleach right afterwards as many do, but it would be foolish to pretend that I live in a sterile environment and that a bleached seed packed in my home would be free of spores. I live in the woods, here... when I studied mycology we did some interesting experiments looking at our own house dust, and in micro we plated swabs from our hands after using the quaternary sterilant hand wash.... the woodland fungal spores are pretty persistent. Also, one thing I learned in course work about human-pathogenic molds in buildings, is that they more you sterilize the surfaces, the more they are rapidly colonized by the nastiest stuff. It's easily explained by the 'empty niche' concept: when a sterilant is used to kill everything in a certain ecological niche, that niche will be rapidly colonized by anything that survived or was simply present in the environment and first to arrive, and/or most aggressive, to take advantage of a lovely empty niche which is free of competitors. It's also true that spores that would be considered harmless in an ordinary ecological context can be pathogenic if they get out of hand without competition. It's true in human health, and makes sense for seed health too. I figure that a bleached seed which is then stored for sowing next year is subject to 'whatever' spores happened to land on em during drying and storage, without the normal community of beneficials that otherwise keep the balance in check (including the yeasts involved in the fermentation). There is some research that showed reduced infection rates by applying Trichoderma harzanium to infected seeds as a pre-sowing treatment, BTW, and makes perfect sense in the context of microbial ecology. Also I've read everything I could find about seed treatments, and certainly as regards the bleach (and maybe the hot water too) there is some reduction in seed viability for seeds treated prior to storage, but treatment just before sowing is reported to improve germination. So it makes more sense to bleach just before sowing, if you're going to do it, IMO. The tricky thing is, with these big swaps, you don't know what procedure other people used. I am tempted to bleach treat before sowing, but the experts do say, don't bleach em twice. I do think you got the best advice already - disease problems mostly show up early on and you just rogue the unhealthy plants to protect the others.

February 11, 2014	#13
Tormato Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: MA Posts: 4,971	All of the seeds in the swap (not including paper enveloped ones where I couldn't see) looked like they were fermented. The exception was just one pack which had sort of a generic description of "red cherry tomatoes". I didn't put that one pack back into the swap. As for beans, before freezing them make sure they pass the "shatter test". Gary