Call for ideas, suggestions, guidance

[mensplace]

I know virtually nothing about state or federal grants, much less gaining support, assistance and financial commitments across branches of government, various departments, corporations, and other organizations that work together to launch new programs. However, as I look across the senior community, the disabled, the needy, and families simply doing their best to make it week to week with ever rising costs of healthy food...especially those which could assist in both improving American diets and health...I am convinced that there is so much, literally from the ground up, that could be done to economically assist in essentially turn key gardening units that would be sized upon the family size, dietary needs, and space availability.

Currently, most approaching gardening resort to in ground, labor, chemical, fertilizer based, hybrid dependent approaches. This is needless for the small family. Too, few communities have processes in place to develop safe alternatives to in ground soil. Instead of converting the endless mountains of waste into compost, most municipalities would rather generate methane generating waste sites. This could mostly be used to make compost that would serve those family garden units.

So, my idea would be standardized, scalable above ground packaged systems, that would be filled with virtually free compost and used to provide those referenced above with the ability to assure seasonable, balanced produce at minimal cost.
What would be involved? Easy to assemble raised bed frames, the free compost, seed and a minimum of work.

I am sure there are many organizations that could work together while creating deliverables that would put such a garden into place within a week of starting. The trick would be how to fund and grow such a program through coordination with business and industry? Your thoughts and suggestions?

[joseph]

For 10,000 years agriculture has thrived on methods that involve as-is, in-ground growing. The reason that it has been done that way is because it is simple, affordable, and consistently reliable...

I did some math... The huge green-waste recycling center that the largest city in my county operates has an inventory of about 20,000 cubic yards of compost and sewage waste... If that compost was spread out four inches deep it would only cover 16 acres. That is less than 1/3000th of the arable land in my county. I believe that their inventory is severely contaminated by poisons, toxins, and metals that arrive in the yard-waste and sewer system. I would never give that kind of product to someone that I was professing to help.

Presuming that the compost was moved an average of 7 miles to be placed in gardens, and that it was moved in huge loads by dump-truck it would cost around $30,000 for fuel and $50,000 to pay a driver, or $5000 per acre.

Virtually free is not the same as free. The market price of compost around here is around $25 per cubic yard so that works out to $31,000 per acre. If a project started buying up mountains of compost it would make prices soar.

Raised beds are very pricey when constructed from new materials... There would be about 500 raised beds per acre if boxes were constructed at 10 feet by 4 feet. If made a single layer deep from 2X6 boards the cost would be around $35 per box or $18,000 per acre.

The yield of sweet corn is approximately $6000 per acre.

So we have spent more than $54,000 per acre to harvest $6000 worth of food.

There is a very good reason why agriculture has thrived by growing in dirt. It is cheap, dirt is available everywhere without transportation, and it is reliable. The reason that communities have not developed alternatives to growing in soil is because there is no alternative... Sure a few rich people here and there can grow in other mediums, but you cannot feed a civilization by other means. There is simply not enough compost or money.

[mensplace]

wrong..in so many ways

[Fred Hempel]

Joseph took the time to address issues specifically. It seems to me that a longer response that addressed at least some of his responses would be more useful than a 5-word dismissal.

Originally Posted by mensplace

wrong..in so many ways

[Redbaron]

Well I wouldn't expect any government grants or support. But as far as setting up something for a local homeless shelter or nursing home, that has been done for sure though private funding and labor.

If it was me I would start small. Pick one homeless shelter or something like that. Then you personally will need to start the ball rolling. I recommend going to the manager and show him this:



and this:



Then simply make a presentation to the facility manager. He surely has a certain budget assigned to maintenance. It might be small but it is something. If he agrees, then approach local nurseries for either discounts and/or the "throwouts" or simply make starts yourself. Start small and then gradually grow it. Once things are actually growing and producing, contact your local paper, TV, councilman etc... My guess is that within a couple years it will grow larger than you ever expected. As far as packaged compost, better to make it on site.

[mensplace]

Are you familiar with Victory gardens of years past...not for the "homeless" , but a commitment by those here and even in England to not only survive but live well. I read a great book by Dr. Esselstyn advocate the reversal of disease through diet. It works. Up in DC you see Michelle going on about diet and gardening as something desirable by all. Everyone spends big bucks on "diets" that generally fail in the long term while the cooking channel pushes rich, expensive foods. Groceries go up each week so few can even afford what is put out, so the waste goes to the dump out back. Everything is connected ...and on a wordwide basis. In the U.S. we spend tons on junk foods and sodas, health in the U.S. means more doctors, hospitals, medicines, so the pharmaceuticals grow wealthy, and the worldwide land use plan is to get more folks back to the cities and reclaim those public lands, while government grows, the people can't afford the classic "balanced diet" as costs rise and there is more and more waste both in expenditure from the top down and in terms of the waste stream. Of course government, city workers, and unions thrive on those areas, building mountains in communities with huge flames spewing like victory batons while the politicians talk of a lack of energy. Elsewhere, entire countries USE methane for vehicles and homes. Ah ..but such lovely mountains, besides, they cover what lies beneath that seeps into the aquifers and back to our rivers...but we don't need our oceans anyway. In a FEW cities with social consciousness the waste stream is sorted, filtered, separated..anything harmful removed , and toxic or poisonous elements never enter. There , responsible, professional composting is done and it works for everyone. Oh yeah, the cost would be HUGE, the cost of disassembling the systems that build the mountains, the lining of pockets, the waste of welfare and food stamps. By durn, to build a raised bed from anything like alternative sources like the concrete and fiberglass, aluminum, or even composite woods would just have to be astronomical....well at least a few dollars...but then you would be giving folks hope while taking money from the BIG BOYS who really deserve it. Imagine how much organic matter gets buried every day. NAW, we need a system where the dole rules and everyone NOT on that list doesn't deserve fresh food anyway! Increasingly, even the middle classes are doing there best to make it week to week. With even a couple grow boxes, safe compost, and a little guidance so much could be done.

[Worth1]

You have to change the general public's mind set first.
I dont think the cost of healthy food is that expensive to begin with.
It is what people choose to buy that is outrageously expensive.
Two people go buy a hamburger, drink and fries= almost $20.
I am a a US citizen and I am ashamed of what we have became.
I see people get up and leave their trash on the table for someone else to pick up in the airport.
I see fathers and mothers trying to tell their kids something but the kid doesn't hear because he has ear buds in.
I see people complain about things they could easily do them selves.
They expect some organization to do it for them.
Like pick up trash along the front of their house.
There are HMO's that a few tell the many what they can do on property they own.
Things like an enterprising little girl that cant sell lemon aid in her front yard due to restrictions.
We have became a society of self serving self entitled expectant people.

I dont even take my trash can out anymore.
I take my neighbor ladies trash can out with my trash in it.
Then I bring it back to her house.
Between the both of us we cant fill up one can in a week.

Seems like I am way off track here but I'm not.
When the mind set of people here change then and only then will we have our fantasy gardens.

It has to become socially unacceptable for people to waste, energy, land, time, food and money and not do their share.

Worth

[mensplace]

I have seen 400 acre aerobic composting sites using windrows where virtually all of a communities' organic materials from industry, personal, and other sources is carefully screened, the materials ground, arranged in six foot high windrows, safe microorganisms added, turned on a regular basis based upon temperature, and then used in 90 days in perfectly safe, rich black, fully composted planting materials. The key is the sorting and the proper processing. These have totally replaced the need for methane mountains. It has worked in communities around the U.S. and the world. Even saw it at work among the Amish in Illinois and Indiana as well as other sites and reviewed the reports of land being saved and people fed in South America, Asia, and Africa. The key is the process. The waste stream to provide source material is virtually endless. The only other component needed would be the "grow boxes". There are many alternatives to wood frames to deliver a turn-key frame. No weeds, no viruses, no tilling...just 100% rich, black compost about two feet deep.

[Fred Hempel]

In my experience, trying to grow plants in "pure" compost won't work. There may be some exceptions, but I would imagine in those a significant amount of soil is mixed with the "pure" compost (during turning etc).

We get great compost that is a by-product of the Bay Area's waste stream. It is free of seeds, has negligible toxins and is certified organic. However, it can not grow plants if it is the only substance available for roots (as a potting mix or raised bed "soil").

Originally Posted by mensplace

I have seen 400 acre aerobic composting sites using windrows where virtually all of a communities' organic materials from industry, personal, and other sources is carefully screened, the materials ground, arranged in six foot high windrows, safe microorganisms added, turned on a regular basis based upon temperature, and then used in 90 days in perfectly safe, rich black, fully composted planting materials. The key is the sorting and the proper processing. These have totally replaced the need for methane mountains. It has worked in communities around the U.S. and the world. Even saw it at work among the Amish in Illinois and Indiana as well as other sites and reviewed the reports of land being saved and people fed in South America, Asia, and Africa. The key is the process. The waste stream to provide source material is virtually endless. The only other component needed would be the "grow boxes". There are many alternatives to wood frames to deliver a turn-key frame. No weeds, no viruses, no tilling...just 100% rich, black compost about two feet deep.

[mensplace]

Fred, I believe that would be totally dependent upon the quality of the compost. Very few commercial composts are truly finished. Too, different states have different regulations as to what they define as compost, how it is made, or what is inside. Many composts are little but an amalgamation of components such as pine bark mulch and not compost at all. Many bagged composts will kill even healthy plants. Anything added to the waste stream that goes into the compost must be monitored. In the aerobic compost I have produced here things grow wonderfully. Here, the very finest topsoil of the Appalachian mountains is compost atop a mineral foundation developed from years of rotting leaves, stems and animal matter.
As for your other observation, what I read previously was based almost exclusively upon one's personal opinions and spurious conclusions. I simply don't feel the need to debate based upon others' opinions with little regard for what I had in mind, i.e., it was a summary judgment or assessment with little regard for my original thoughts and intents.

[joseph]

duplicate post...

[joseph]

I built 3 raised beds for an elderly woman this spring and filled them with a mixture of compost and sand. The cost using a combination of new and recycled materials was over $500 and netted 120 square feet of growing area. The cost of the sand and compost was $120. So it cost more than $4 per square foot to build the beds for her.

I built a greenhouse this spring. The cost was slightly more than $4 per square foot. In my cold climate the greenhouse provides a better return on investment than raised beds do. The USDA already has a program in place that provides grants for building hoop houses.

This spring I planted a 40000 square foot garden. It cost me about $50 in diesel for the tiller. So that's 1/10th of a cent per square foot. That makes it more than 3000 times more expensive to grow in the raised beds than it does to grow in the pre-existing dirt.

In this particular case I expect the raised beds to yield almost nothing, because raised beds in this area dehydrate extremely quickly and the elderly lady is unlikely to provide sufficient water. I also expect that the herbicides, heavy metals, and woody materials in the compost that she insisted on will be detrimental to her plants.

I've farmed for decades. Boots on the ground as they say. I have had plenty of experience with these issues... If people wanted to grow their own food they could. People always say things to me like: "My garden is not doing anything and yours is thriving. What are we doing different?" I can't answer that question and be polite, and in any case I don't know what they do in their gardens... But I know that I am in my garden an hour and a half before sunrise. And I plant when it's snowing, and I weed when it's way too hot/sunny, and I sow while it's raining, and no matter how hard the wind is blowing I'm out there harvesting. I work by moonlight when it's plain old too hot during the day or during frost emergencies. I irrigate on a meticulous schedule. I have watched lots of people build lots of infrastructure (raised beds) for gardening, but for the most part it is wasted effort because they won't follow through with the hard work in uncomfortable conditions.

If you really want to help people eat better food, I'd suggest working to get rid of laws that require manicured lawns and forbid poultry keeping. And teach them how to have enough ambition to actually get out and work in the garden, whatever that garden is made out of.

[Labradors2]

I live in Ontario, Canada, where they are big on recycling.

A couple of years ago we were issued with sturdy green plastic "green bins" that look like trash cans with hinged lids into which we can put compostable materials, leftover food and bones.

The garbage truck empties them (and takes the garbage at the same time) and the contents are driven to a huge facility that composts, as well as incinerates the bones. They also take brush.

The finished compost is sold at the going rate - no freebies for the participants!

We recycle paper, plastic, cans and glass, and can rarely fill up our trash can once a week.

I have my own composter, so I only use my green bin for noxious weeds such as dandelions. Our dogs take care of any food leftovers.

Linda

[mensplace]

http://www.ecticompost.com

[Worth1]

It was 6:30 AM I go outside and walk around in my yard with a cup of coffee.
A wild tomcat comes by and greets me.
I give him some food and he follows me around and rubs on me.

It is 70 degrees outside and it rained 2 3/4 inches last night.
The weather couldn't be better.
I look around and I am about the only person outside.

This goes on day after day.
The only people I see outside doing things are Oscar and Alexandria 2 houses up and some folks 3 houses down.
They are always outside doing things in their yard.
Oscar and Alexandria are from Chile and the other people are from some other country.
They love this country and dont take it for granted.
Every day I see Alexandria go to the back of her yard and drink coffee and watch the critters on a bench.
Both families are friendly and always stop and talk to me and wave.
The family down the street has chickens and their yard is nice and kept up.

Everyone else is in the house hiding from the world.
The only time you see them outside is when they have to mow their lawn.

It is a chore to them they dont want to be outside.
Something on TV is too important for them to go outside.
Their yard is a canvas from which they hide behind.

People in apartments dream of having a yard and a house.
They dream of a garden.
They pay twice as much for rent than they would a house payment.
They dont qualify for a loan and the landlord sucks them dry every month.


This is the USA and this is how many of us live.
People are like ticks on a cow.
We are the ticks and the cow is our country.

If we suck too much then one day that cow will die.
We have to take care of our cow.

Worth