Says heirloom...but not really.

[Psalms441]

Hello,
Why are people who sell seeds and tomatoes at stores allowed to say that their products are heirloom but are only related to heirloom tomatoes? I saw a while back ago really red tomatoes with a little bit of orange in them with a sign over it saying Marvel Striped. And I purchased some Abe Lincoln seeds labled heirloom at a store, seeded them and the red tomatoes taste really good but they they don't look the way that they are described. They don't have the characteristic nine tomatoes to a cluster (only five) and the foliage does not have the reported bronze hue to it. I think that it is fraud to label tomatoes heirloom when they are not. Am I the only one who feels this way?

[JRinPA]

I got duped buying some plants this year. We always buy hybrids, but along with the big beef, early girl, romas and sunsugars (all F1) I wanted to try a couple heirlooms. I was planning to save seeds if they were good. I bought one mortgage lifter and one Brandywine, both marked "heirloom" boldly on the front of the tag.

Noticed a few weeks after planting that the card for the Mortgage Lifter says "F1 Hybrid" on the back of the card. The Brandywine does not. I'm not sure what to think about that - how can a plant be both an heirloom and a hybrid F1? Unfortunately it's almost moot, because neither are producing plant vigor or tomato size and numbers nearly as great as the hybrids next to them.

[joseph]

As an example of this.... Do a search for "Indigo Rose Heirloom tomato". That tomato was first released for the 2012 growing season.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Psalms441

Hello,
Why are people who sell seeds and tomatoes at stores allowed to say that their products are heirloom but are only related to heirloom tomatoes? I saw a while back ago really red tomatoes with a little bit of orange in them with a sign over it saying Marvel Striped. And I purchased some Abe Lincoln seeds labled heirloom at a store, seeded them and the red tomatoes taste really good but they they don't look the way that they are described. They don't have the characteristic nine tomatoes to a cluster (only five) and the foliage does not have the reported bronze hue to it. I think that it is fraud to label tomatoes heirloom when they are not. Am I the only one who feels this way?

Don't feel badly that your Abraham Lincolnc doesn't have bronze foliage since no one else has seen it after it was first offered

Howard Essl once thought he saw a bit of bronze tinge, but as the day grew warmer and the sun higher,he never saw it again,, Speculation abounds as to what caused the initial foliage color seen and most think it was due to certain metals in the soil,

The other problem is that there are MANY varieties called Abraham Lincoln,othes call it Abe Lincoln others true Abrham Lincoln and on and on,

I think it;s Totally Tomatoes that lists different ones,but one sees the same thing in the SSE Yearbooks.

(Why are people who sell seeds and tomatoes at stores allowed to say that their products are heirloom but are only related to heirloom tomatoes?)

I'mnot understaning therealtedpart butforsure thee aremany seed vnedorswhodon'twhat they aredloing andsame for tomatoessoldatFarmersMarkets andelsewhere.

This Friday I'm being interviewed for an article that will focus on that issue and some closely related ones,in terms of the evolution of the tomato and marketing same.

Carolyn

[Cole_Robbie]

I grew a tomato this year named "Heirloom Orange F1." I hope everyone here can have a good laugh at that name.

[JRinPA]

LOL , yeah I just did.

[AlittleSalt]

The seeds that irritate me are the ones that advertise as; "Organic". Um, organic means: "Alive at one time or another." Any plant (weed or whatever), fish, cows, grasshoppers, dogs, people, etc. are all organic. So the selling point of, "Organic seeds" must mean that they might grow? hmm

[Wi-sunflower]

Actually "Organic" in the Garden biz DOES have a very exact definition -- grown without chemicals and pesticides and it won't have any chemical coating on it. "Natural" tho is a term that has no real meaning and is often used to cheat people who think they are getting Organic.

Carolyn -

(Why are people who sell seeds and tomatoes at stores allowed to say that their products are heirloom but are only related to heirloom tomatoes?)

I think she means - why do people call something "heirloom" when it's really one of these new varieties maybe bred using 1 heirloom. Or what I think you have called "created heirlooms" with the made up "past".

Personally I think at least part of the issue is the fact that there is SSSOOO much anti-GMO rhetoric out there right now and too many people equate Hybrid with GMO. Not everyone knows that ALL GMOs are Hybrid but not ALL Hybrids are GMO.

Even the "Organic" issue is a mess. I sell at a farmers market in a liberal college town. Many there will ask if your stuff is "organic", but then they have no clue what the answer SHOULD be. When I tell them we have only used BT on our cole crops, many of them walk away looking like I just tried to poison them. The have no clue that BT is organic approved. I try to tell them but often they still walk away.

Carol

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Actually "Organic" in the Garden biz DOES have a very exact definition -- grown without chemicals and pesticides and it won't have any chemical coating on it. "Natural" tho is a term that has no real meaning and is often used to cheat people who think they are getting Organic.

Carolyn -

(Why are people who sell seeds and tomatoes at stores allowed to say that their products are heirloom but are only related to heirloom tomatoes?)

I think she means - why do people call something "heirloom" when it's really one of these new varieties maybe bred using 1 heirloom. Or what I think you have called "created heirlooms" with the made up "past".

Personally I think at least part of the issue is the fact that there is SSSOOO much anti-GMO rhetoric out there right now and too many people equate Hybrid with GMO. Not everyone knows that ALL GMOs are Hybrid but not ALL Hybrids are GMO.

Even the "Organic" issue is a mess. I sell at a farmers market in a liberal college town. Many there will ask if your stuff is "organic", but then they have no clue what the answer SHOULD be. When I tell them we have only used BT on our cole crops, many of them walk away looking like I just tried to poison them. The have no clue that BT is organic approved. I try to tell them but often they still walk away.

Carol

Carol, no time now but I'll be back later to comment on some of what you posted.

I looked at my post above and saw that I hadn't edited it so it's a mess,but I have no time to go back and edit it.

Carolyn

[Barbee]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Actually "Organic" in the Garden biz DOES have a very exact definition -- grown without chemicals and pesticides and it won't have any chemical coating on it. "Natural" tho is a term that has no real meaning and is often used to cheat people who think they are getting Organic.


Even the "Organic" issue is a mess. I sell at a farmers market in a liberal college town. Many there will ask if your stuff is "organic", but then they have no clue what the answer SHOULD be. When I tell them we have only used BT on our cole crops, many of them walk away looking like I just tried to poison them. The have no clue that BT is organic approved. I try to tell them but often they still walk away.

Carol

Maybe the problem is because "organic" is associated for some reason by the general public with no pesticides used. Your first paragraph states that the definition of organic is no chemicals or pesticides are used. Your second paragraph contradicts that.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Actually "Organic" in the Garden biz DOES have a very exact definition -- grown without chemicals and pesticides and it won't have any chemical coating on it. "Natural" tho is a term that has no real meaning and is often used to cheat people who think they are getting Organic.

Carolyn -

(Why are people who sell seeds and tomatoes at stores allowed to say that their products are heirloom but are only related to heirloom tomatoes?)

I think she means - why do people call something "heirloom" when it's really one of these new varieties maybe bred using 1 heirloom. Or what I think you have called "created heirlooms" with the made up "past".

Personally I think at least part of the issue is the fact that there is SSSOOO much anti-GMO rhetoric out there right now and too many people equate Hybrid with GMO. Not everyone knows that ALL GMOs are Hybrid but not ALL Hybrids are GMO.

Even the "Organic" issue is a mess. I sell at a farmers market in a liberal college town. Many there will ask if your stuff is "organic", but then they have no clue what the answer SHOULD be. When I tell them we have only used BT on our cole crops, many of them walk away looking like I just tried to poison them. The have no clue that BT is organic approved. I try to tell them but often they still walk away.

Carol

I said I'd be back, and here I am.

If you look at the USDA you'll see that there afre FOUR levels of organicness. If you look at the individual organic certifying agencies you'll see that they have their own definitions.

The first such group is the one in Maine, MOGFA , Maine Organic Farmers Association, and they were the first in the US to form such an association and all other LEGITIMATE ones patterned their's on that one.

Where I live it's NOFA, a good one, yes, but here's what happened. Many local farmers, and I know some of them, wanted to get in on the organic bandwagon, actually for two reasons, first, b'c they anticipated demand, and second b'c they could charge higher prices.

The only good product that could be used for a few foliage diseases was Kocide, copper based, and then NOFA banned that one saying that the label didn't spell out what was in the INERT ingredients.

One doesn't get permanent certification, and the cost of recertification went sky high, so you shouldnt be surprised to know that several farmers arounf here refused to reup.

(Not everyone knows that ALL GMOs are Hybrid but not ALL Hybrids are GMO)

Carol, maybe it's me but I'm having a hard time trying to understand what you posted.

A GMO anything just means that gene(s) from a different genus/species has been inserted into another genus/species.

The so called blue tomato developed in England has a snapdragon gene inserted, so it's a GMO. Indigo Rose was developed using conventional breeding and it's not a GMO.

And neither of those are hybrids, as in F1's, as in deliberate breeding.

Yes, almost all of our Op varieties started out as natural cross pollinations to form a hybrid, or by deliberate crossing to get same, but those initial hybrids were grown out, selections made, and regrown for several generations until a genetically stable variety was reached.

About the seeds. Both MOGFA and NOFA require that organically grown seeds be used, unless specific varieties do not have organically grown seeds available and then they can use non-organic seeds. And do.

I understgand that many individuals want only organic seeds, and I think that stems frrom a personal philosopy, since it's the plants/ fruits that are grown organically that matter, not what the seeds are.

All for now,

Carolyn

[joseph]

I think that if we are going to be growing naturally that it is important to obtain seed that was naturally grown. Because it seems to me that a cultivar that has been protected by all manner of -cides for generations is untested. It has not shown itself suitable for growing without chemicals. On the other hand a variety that has gone through natural selection for resistance to diseases, and pests seems better suited for use in an environment without -cides.

I think that this is one of the major failings of the seed industry today. The seed production fields are protected by all sorts of -cides (both natural and synthetic) and so the parents aren't selected for the ability to deal with disease and pests. Then the seeds get distributed to home growers who think that it is wrong to poison their crops, and the planting fails because it is missing the poisons that the crop has come to depend on.

[drew51]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Actually "Organic" in the Garden biz DOES have a very exact definition --

I would 100% disagree. The term has no legal definition really, and what one calls organic others do not. Define chemical? Organic pesticides are chemicals.
So does organic mean without organic pesticides? Not the place, but the term organic is a total joke. I do know what you mean, but it's a very bad term. As a lab tech I can't stand the improper use of the word. It has nothing to do with gardening, another term is needed. Agent Orange is organic in my book, and always will be. Current chemistry teachings agree with me. So using this word to mean something else was a super bad choice of words. You can't ever define the term as chemists need to know what's really organic. The word is too important to give to gardening. So it will never be legally defined.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by drew51

I would 100% disagree. The term has no legal definition really, and what one calls organic others do not. Define chemical? Organic pesticides are chemicals.
So does organic mean without organic pesticides? Not the place, but the term organic is a total joke. I do know what you mean, but it's a very bad term. As a lab tech I can't stand the improper use of the word. It has nothing to do with gardening, another term is needed. Agent Orange is organic in my book, and always will be. Current chemistry teachings agree with me. So using this word to mean something else was a super bad choice of words. You can't ever define the term as chemists need to know what's really organic. The word is too important to give to gardening. So it will never be legally defined.

They have a section in research at DOW chemical that says organics.
It isn't anything you would want to put in your garden.

Worth

[drew51]

Originally Posted by Worth1

They have a section in research at DOW chemical that says organics.
It isn't anything you would want to put in your garden.

Worth

LOL! Your post earlier in the thread says it all. You put it much better than I.

"Natural" is another word totally abused. As I type this I'm absorbing chemicals thrown off my keyboard. This is a good thing. Humans with genes that cannot take the chemical exposure will succumb leaving better adapted humans. Natural selection in all it's beauty. Then again no stopping the fact we will become extinct, either from our own demise, or natural selection. As we become something that can no longer be called Homo sapien. Either/or will happen at some point. Nothing is forever including the sun itself.