Growing Heirloom & Other Heirloom Beside Each Other

AlittleSalt · August 10, 2014

I have done a lot of research on Heirloom Tomatoes/other garden veges and understand some of the appeal and drawbacks about heirloom varieties. I have done way less research about Hybrids, but I understand why hybrids were first developed. I like the idea of taking the best of both plants to make a better plant that is a disease resistant product.

However, there needs to be a 100% common acceptance of what is really a hybrid and what is an heirloom. I've read Rodale Press, heard people talking about it, read a whole lot here, listened to online YouTube or whatever, and all the PBS/Neil Sperry radio, etc... Heirloom is still roughly translated as a plant variety at least 100 years old, or maybe 50 years old, open pollinated, and grows out the same as the mother plant from seeds saved from the year before, or who knows?

From all my research, I personally believe that an heirloom tomato is one that is open pollinated that has produced mostly 95% or exactly the same plant/fruit year-after-year. Only 10 years of planting spring and fall crops in areas that allow two growing seasons - would equal out to 20 years of testing. We can live long enough to answer our own questions.

My title question is about planting heirloom plants/seeds beside other heirloom varieties. First, I am asking about this simpler sounding example: Today, I planted climbing black eyed peas along two fence lines. Four inches from the fences on both sides. On the inside garden, I planted rows of bush purple hull peas, One row is only 12 inches away from the black eyed peas beside the fence and the next row of purple hull peas are 12 inches more. So in about 30 inches, there are four rows of peas each growing as they are supposed to.

(New to gardening question) Is there any chance that the two heirloom peas might cause a hybrid type result in seeds I save for next spring? If so, is it possible that growing Homestead tomatoes beside Green Zebras, or growing Rutgers, Large Red Cherry, and Jellybean all planted 4-feet apart could cause some sort of Hybrids?

I have not read about how to make hybrids yet. That is for another day. I don't want to know-it-all now about tomatoes or anything. I want to learn it.

Gardening makes us young.

joseph · August 10, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

Is there any chance that the two heirloom peas might cause a hybrid type result in seeds I save for next spring?

Yes. I don't know the odds specifically for cowpeas, but in other types of beans/peas the odds of a natural cross occurring are around 1 in 300 to 1 in 20, depending on location, which pollinators are active, weather, etc, etc, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

is it possible that growing Homestead tomatoes beside Green Zebras, or growing Rutgers, Large Red Cherry, and Jellybean all planted 4-feet apart could cause some sort of Hybrids?

Yes. Averaged across all varieties in all gardens the odds are about 5% of a natural hybrid showing up. Results may vary from garden to garden and year to year. If you don't like the odds, then you can either weed out non-conforming plants, or take extreme measures such as bagging to further minimize the odds of crossing.

"Open Pollinated" as commonly used by the seed industry means that the grower goes to great lengths to prevent the plant from actually crossing with anything else. The assigned meaning is opposite to the common sense meaning of the words used to make the phrase.

Pollination is quadratic in nature, so increasing distance results in rapidly decreasing the odds of cross pollination. The graph looks approximately like this... Doubling the distance between plants results in a 4X reduction in the likelihood of crossing. So if the chances of a cross are 5% at 4 feet between plants, they are reduced to 1% at 16 feet between plants. Increasing the distance between plants by 10 times results in 100 times reduction in the chance of crossing. (mathematically/statistically speaking...) So at 40 feet the chances of crossing are about 5 in 10,000.

In my garden I seek out and encourage natural cross pollination between varieties.

amideutch · August 10, 2014

Check out this thread on the subject.

Ami

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...light=Heirloom

AlittleSalt · August 10, 2014

Thank you both and all the contributors to the linked post that Ami put up above. Both replies are easy to understand now that I understand more about gardening in general.

A lot of people, friends, relatives come to my garden and ask countless questions that until joining this site - I had no idea how to answer. I guess I need to learn about Hybrids next.

JLJ_ · August 10, 2014

You might want to take a look at this thread, especially at the two links in post #15

Likelihood of crossing without bagging:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...044#post427044

Worth1 · August 10, 2014

I know your question has been answered but here goes in a simple way.
Tomatoes and beans are self pollinating.
They dont require a bee to pollinate them they have what you call a perfect flower.
Other plants have a separate male and female flowers.
They need help from insects like bees to pollinate them.
These include all of your squash pumpkins cucumbers melons and so forth.
Some trees like apples and pecans need another tree for them to pollinate and produce fruit.
Therefore all apple and pecan seeds are hybrid seeds.
Most but not all peaches are self pollinating and dont need bees.
Pomegranates are self pollinating.
Some plants like spinach have both make and female plants but we eat the leaves so we dont care unless we want seeds.
As for corn you would be better off planting many short rows instead of one long one.
Okra is self pollinating.

Worth

AlittleSalt · August 11, 2014

Worth, as always, what you write/share here is extremely useful and meaningful to me. I'm still not sure about the Plum Tomatoes you suggested to grow here in Texas (Laughing, those tomatoes look ugly

)

Oh, and have you ever grown, "Porter" tomatoes? They were developed in Stephenville, Texas just for our dry areas in zones 7 and 8 here in Texas. Stephenville is a smaller county seat town a little closer to Fort Worth than Austin. It is in Erath County. I think it's up 281 to I-67 from Austin?

To me, Porter tomatoes are kind of "General/Average tasting." Not Sweet, tangy, mushy, or boring. Well, for me, they taste like tomatoes are supposed to taste like. They are about golf ball sized. Online sites advertise they are pink and egg shaped, but I've never seen them as anything but valentines day heart red and basically round. They come up volunteer more than all the other tomato varieties combined so far. However the amount of volunteers we have come from me chunking tomatoes around the garden when there are way too many to give away. I look at it as open composting.

I am wondering about the varieties that need bees to pollinate them " Squash pumpkins cucumbers melons and so forth" What I have not only noticed but have tons of problems with is that squash, pumpkins, cucumbers, and melons attract squash bugs BIG TIME. Organic gardening results told that I needed to spray the squash bugs with dish soap and water. I did that in 2011, 12, and 13. This year, I added malathion to the soap and water spray and I still ended up burning the crop of each. There has to be a way to get rid of squash bugs better than this?

As for corn, we have chosen not to plant it. I live in an area that grows tons of corn as near as a mile away. The grocery stores around here sells corn 4-8 ears for a dollar except in the dead-of-winter. I figure the cost of watering our garden grown corn would cost more than just buying what is grown a mile down-the-road in the same basic or better soil. Heh, if I was obstinate teenager - I could just go "borrow" a few ears.

LJL, I clicked on the link, and read err page two is what comes up first. It was interesting reading. I did see post 15 on page 1, and I will read the links tomorrow. Thank you.

joseph · August 11, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

There has to be a way to get rid of squash bugs better than this?

Grow varieties that are more resistant to squash bugs.

JLJ_ · August 11, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

. . . I clicked on the link, and read err page two is what comes up first. It was interesting reading. I did see post 15 on page 1, and I will read the links tomorrow. Thank you.

Something you might find useful is to go to the top right of this (or any) page and click Quick Links > Edit Options > Scroll down to 'Thread Display Options' > click the dropdown and set to 'number of posts to show per page' to 30. Saves you a lot of loading of multiple pages, and if you do have to load multiple pages, there won't be so many.

When you've set that (and any other options you want to change) the way you want them, click "Save Changes" at the bottom of the page and life will be a little easier.

Worth1 · August 11, 2014

I was born in Lampasas south of you and been all over your area including the birth place of porter.

My parents grew porter.
The last time I had to deal with squash bugs and such we used something that is illegal.

Lead arsenate back in the 70's.

Thanks.

Worth

AlittleSalt · August 11, 2014

JLJ, perfect timing. I was just about to start reading those links. I'll give it a try. Thanks.

August 10, 2014	#3
amideutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Germany 49°26"N 07°36"E Posts: 5,041	Check out this thread on the subject. Ami http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...light=Heirloom __________________ Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘...Holy Crap .....What a ride!'

August 10, 2014	#1
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	Growing Heirloom & Other Heirloom Beside Each Other I have done a lot of research on Heirloom Tomatoes/other garden veges and understand some of the appeal and drawbacks about heirloom varieties. I have done way less research about Hybrids, but I understand why hybrids were first developed. I like the idea of taking the best of both plants to make a better plant that is a disease resistant product. However, there needs to be a 100% common acceptance of what is really a hybrid and what is an heirloom. I've read Rodale Press, heard people talking about it, read a whole lot here, listened to online YouTube or whatever, and all the PBS/Neil Sperry radio, etc... Heirloom is still roughly translated as a plant variety at least 100 years old, or maybe 50 years old, open pollinated, and grows out the same as the mother plant from seeds saved from the year before, or who knows? From all my research, I personally believe that an heirloom tomato is one that is open pollinated that has produced mostly 95% or exactly the same plant/fruit year-after-year. Only 10 years of planting spring and fall crops in areas that allow two growing seasons - would equal out to 20 years of testing. We can live long enough to answer our own questions. My title question is about planting heirloom plants/seeds beside other heirloom varieties. First, I am asking about this simpler sounding example: Today, I planted climbing black eyed peas along two fence lines. Four inches from the fences on both sides. On the inside garden, I planted rows of bush purple hull peas, One row is only 12 inches away from the black eyed peas beside the fence and the next row of purple hull peas are 12 inches more. So in about 30 inches, there are four rows of peas each growing as they are supposed to. (New to gardening question) Is there any chance that the two heirloom peas might cause a hybrid type result in seeds I save for next spring? If so, is it possible that growing Homestead tomatoes beside Green Zebras, or growing Rutgers, Large Red Cherry, and Jellybean all planted 4-feet apart could cause some sort of Hybrids? I have not read about how to make hybrids yet. That is for another day. I don't want to know-it-all now about tomatoes or anything. I want to learn it. Gardening makes us young.

August 10, 2014	#5
JLJ_ Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 759	You might want to take a look at this thread, especially at the two links in post #15 Likelihood of crossing without bagging: http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...044#post427044

August 10, 2014	#6
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	I know your question has been answered but here goes in a simple way. Tomatoes and beans are self pollinating. They dont require a bee to pollinate them they have what you call a perfect flower. Other plants have a separate male and female flowers. They need help from insects like bees to pollinate them. These include all of your squash pumpkins cucumbers melons and so forth. Some trees like apples and pecans need another tree for them to pollinate and produce fruit. Therefore all apple and pecan seeds are hybrid seeds. Most but not all peaches are self pollinating and dont need bees. Pomegranates are self pollinating. Some plants like spinach have both make and female plants but we eat the leaves so we dont care unless we want seeds. As for corn you would be better off planting many short rows instead of one long one. Okra is self pollinating. Worth

August 11, 2014	#7
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	Worth, as always, what you write/share here is extremely useful and meaningful to me. I'm still not sure about the Plum Tomatoes you suggested to grow here in Texas (Laughing, those tomatoes look ugly ) Oh, and have you ever grown, "Porter" tomatoes? They were developed in Stephenville, Texas just for our dry areas in zones 7 and 8 here in Texas. Stephenville is a smaller county seat town a little closer to Fort Worth than Austin. It is in Erath County. I think it's up 281 to I-67 from Austin? To me, Porter tomatoes are kind of "General/Average tasting." Not Sweet, tangy, mushy, or boring. Well, for me, they taste like tomatoes are supposed to taste like. They are about golf ball sized. Online sites advertise they are pink and egg shaped, but I've never seen them as anything but valentines day heart red and basically round. They come up volunteer more than all the other tomato varieties combined so far. However the amount of volunteers we have come from me chunking tomatoes around the garden when there are way too many to give away. I look at it as open composting. I am wondering about the varieties that need bees to pollinate them " Squash pumpkins cucumbers melons and so forth" What I have not only noticed but have tons of problems with is that squash, pumpkins, cucumbers, and melons attract squash bugs BIG TIME. Organic gardening results told that I needed to spray the squash bugs with dish soap and water. I did that in 2011, 12, and 13. This year, I added malathion to the soap and water spray and I still ended up burning the crop of each. There has to be a way to get rid of squash bugs better than this? As for corn, we have chosen not to plant it. I live in an area that grows tons of corn as near as a mile away. The grocery stores around here sells corn 4-8 ears for a dollar except in the dead-of-winter. I figure the cost of watering our garden grown corn would cost more than just buying what is grown a mile down-the-road in the same basic or better soil. Heh, if I was obstinate teenager - I could just go "borrow" a few ears. LJL, I clicked on the link, and read err page two is what comes up first. It was interesting reading. I did see post 15 on page 1, and I will read the links tomorrow. Thank you.