how to build soil for taste of the produce

[tnkrer]

This was the first year I planted the same tomato and cuke in both a container (earth tainer) and in the soil. The taste of all the tomatoes was quite inferior from the plants planted in ground. The production did not suffer. They produced as well or better. I think the cukes also suffered in taste, but I am not sure that I would have been able to spot ground vs container in a blind taste test. Where as for tomatoes (sungold, sunsugar, black cherry, green cherokee) it was a stark difference.

Here are the differences as I see them
Container had one more hour of sun (6 hrs instead of 5), Conainer got regular feeding of fertilizer. Container always had water (bottom wicked)

This fall, I have added used coffee grounds and mulched leaves to the garden beds. What else I can do to improve the taste of the produce. Next year, I am planning to plant cuke, okra, eggplant and tomatoes in this bed. Its a strip of 25 ft x 1 ft at the end of my patio.

[Cole_Robbie]

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=33041

The manure of grass-fed cows worked well for me.

[Worth1]

Its the minerals in the soil I have no doubt about this.
As for the manure from grass fed cows it should be a no brainer.
The cows eat the grass the grass has the minerals in it, not all of the minerals get digested by the cow.
The manure passes the minerals along to the plant.'
That is why grass fed beef to me taste better than feed lot beef.
You can look at your container tomatoes as feed lot tomatoes.
Even soil differences can make a huge difference.
The amount and type of water can also effect flavor.
A person that grew tomatoes in raised beds north of me had tomatoes that where good but not as strong in flavor as my exact same tomatoes grown in my soil.
These tomatoes came from the same seeds too.

Worth

[squirrel789]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Its the minerals in the soil I have no doubt about this.
As for the manure from grass fed cows it should be a no brainer.
The cows eat the grass the grass has the minerals in it, not all of the minerals get digested by the cow.
The manure passes the minerals along to the plant.'
That is why grass fed beef to me taste better than feed lot beef.
You can look at your container tomatoes as feed lot tomatoes.
Even soil differences can make a huge difference.
The amount and type of water can also effect flavor.
A person that grew tomatoes in raised beds north of me had tomatoes that where good but not as strong in flavor as my exact same tomatoes grown in my soil.
These tomatoes came from the same seeds too.

Worth

Worth,

So, is it true that a container garden with a good fertilizer just won't produce those delicious, complexly flavored tomatoes? I've had feed-lot beef compared to small-farm-raised grass fed beef and the difference in taste is extremely noticeably significant. I've always grown in-ground with composted cow manure and straw and the tomatoes were excellent, but current circumstances require I grow a soil-less (2 parts good, local compost-2 parts peat-1 part vermiculite) patio container this year. I LOVE a good tasting tomato, but is this impossible to achieve growing in this way? Could a good fertilizer, like the Urban Farms TFF I've read so much about here, still not produce that awesome in-ground farm tomato taste? Sorry, I don't mean to hijack the thread, I'm just curious because I won't invest in a container garden again next year if that the consensus is that container gardens diminish that great tomato flavor significantly. I can always buy flavorless tomatoes from the grocery store

I am trying a 170 gallon 2'x2'x6' galvanized water trough this year as my patio is the only place available to me right now with full sun. Sorry for the intrusion on the original post, but I am curious to know if containers can be it's worth it in terms of flavor.

Thanks for any input!

[tnkrer]

I don't see any pastures around here, so cow manure is not easy to get. There are horse farms/stables around. So I will see if I can muster the nerve to call and ask about horse manure. No idea how to ensure that it is composted/aged and good quality.
Or pay for the Black Kow stuff at lowes/home depot. how much should I put down on 25 sq ft?

Anyone from MA knows a trusted local source for horse manure?

Worth1, the container tomatoes tested as well or better as any farmer's market locally grown tomatoes I have eaten. However, If I can get better taste out of the ground, I am all for it. Right now, I will settle for as good as the taste from the container. and the shredded leaves, ground coffee and possibly cow/horse manure will improve it for me next year.

[Cole_Robbie]

Unfortunately with cow manure, if you buy it in bags, you're getting the manure from feed lot cattle. I don't think it's nearly as good.

My family uses some horse manure, too. You want to test for herbicide contamination by growing a bean plant in a cup. If the leaves are gnarled-looking, that's herbicide, and the manure will destroy your soil for years. There's a web site about it: www.manurematters.com

[COMPOSTER]

Not sure where you are in Mass but I'm in CT and I came across an organic seed meal based fertilizer called North Country organics pro gro 5-3-4. It has some similarities to Steve Solomon's Complete Organic Fertilizer. I have been using it with good results for 3 years. I also use about 4lbs of lime per 100ft of bed in the Fall and about 1/3 inch home made compost Spring & Fall. I mix the compost with basalt dust I pick up from a local quarry and work it into the top 1/2-1 inch of my soil. That is as deep as I go. I do not disturb the soil any deeper than that shallow depth. The soil and the taste of my produce seem to improve every year. I think it takes time to build the soil. So with a little time and patience I think your in ground veggies will improve in flavor dramatically.

Glenn

[Redbaron]

Horse manure works great and usually people are happy to have you come get it. You may have to compost it if fresh though. Not a real biggie though. Easy to compost.

[tnkrer]

So here are couple of pictures of some composted horse manure I got from a nearby horse farm. I do not know how long it has been composted. Up close it does have a faint odor of poop however I transported it in an open container in my van and I didn't think I smelled anything. It does not look like dirt though. I can see the poop clumps and the shavings. Any opinions based on the pictures? Looks good enough to mix in the garden bed?

[KarenO]

Hiya,
Looks a little "poopish" still but I think it would be fine to spread it now and let it finish the composting process in place as long as you are sure about it not containing heribicides. When do you plant in spring in your area? I spread some pretty well composted manure on my in ground garden each fall and let it sit and leach it's goodnees into the soil with the spring thaw. I do till to Mix it up once before planting and away we go. I would not use it in containers as it is but a thin layer over a raised bed would be good, let it mellow out there until spring. I advise against any fresh manure mulch in any garden that is growing but it's ok as long as there is say 3 months before planting time to mellow. It will finish composting in the garden and all of the good minerals and organic matter will benefit your soil. More is not necessarily better, a two inch mulch spread over the area as evenly as possible at any one time I think is best. I know folks who have added truckloads all at once but I think a thinner layer spring and fall, every year is a safer alternative. I think manure used as fertilizer adds nutrients that make garden vegetables and tomatoes taste better but I'm an ex farm girl so maybe that's all it is.

KarenO

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by tnkrer

What else I can do to improve the taste of the produce.

Make sure you provide a source of potash (potassium salts). If you want to go all natural, then a non-toxic source of wood ash can work well if it is mixed with soil several months prior to planting. If you are willing to use some salts that occur naturally in nature (dry lake beds, etc.) then I recommend K-Mag or for non-acidic soils, Sul-Po-Mag. And finally, if you are willing to use a water-soluble then acquire something with an N-P-K where the "K" number is 1.5 times the "N" number.

A note about phytotoxicity: when it comes to plant nutrients, more isn't necessarily better. This is especially true with potash. You can over do it and the plants will shut down (permanently) with symptoms of Manganese deficiency.

Wood ash from real wood burned in fireplaces is very user-friendly! Before you get to the maximum, the soil would be so dense with ash that the plants won't grow anyway. A volume ratio of 1 part real wood ash to 10 parts soil is a good beginner dosage. For organic or "natural" farmers who are willing to do a little more measurement, the ideal dosage is approximately 3/8 lbs wood ash per 1 lbs of soil (not kiln dried, but less than moist).

For commercial sources of dehydrated salts (K-Mag, Sul-Po-Mag, and water-solubles), follow the directions on the manufacturer's label.

[Cole_Robbie]

Horse manure is full of tetanus. Cover any open sores or cuts that might come into contact with it. Wear rubber gloves if you are going to touch it with your hands.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

Horse manure is full of tetanus. Cover any open sores or cuts that might come into contact with it. Wear rubber gloves if you are going to touch it with your hands.

Get a shot too.

Worth

[Lindalana]

I know it is an expense and maybe not worth for smaller gardens... but I would test soil first and then add what missing.

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by Lindalana

I know it is an expense and maybe not worth for smaller gardens... but I would test soil first and then add what missing.

Well, this is a century-old approach that disregards the rates that plants absorb available nutrients. It is what led to the large-scale approach in agriculture of broadcasting granular 15-15-15 and not worrying too much about deficiencies. However, this practice (of bringing soil nutrients up to certain levels) is the largest source of groundwater pollution in the U.S. and developed countries today -- esp. nitrates. I'm a strong believer in supplying plant groups with nutrients to meet their needs and not over-stocking the soil to the point of groundwater pollution. Further, this practice of "bringing the soil nutrients up to level" often leads to obtaining phosphate concentrations that won't go away. It's really not what I want in my gardens or orchards.