Marbonne, Marnero, Margold

[Cole_Robbie]

My Johnny's catalog just came. They have three new hybrid tomatoes that look like they are meant for market growers. I don't think anyone else would pay $20 for a packet of seeds. The Marbonne is a relative bargain at $10, but currently back-ordered.

Would you ever pay that much for seeds? Do you think the vigor they claim would re-coup the seed cost for a market grower? Or are expensive hybrids like that only worthwhile if one has a specific disease problem, and the hybrid is resistant to that disease?

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-9661-marbonne-f1.aspx
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-9318-marnero-f1.aspx
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-9319-margold-f1.aspx

[Fred Hempel]

I am intrigued by the Marnero -- "Dead ringer for Cherokee Purple" but more disease resistance and vigor. If it is 10% more vigorous, and it has Cherokee Purple flavor and fruit quality, it will pay for the price of seeds over and over.

I will buy all 3. Because Johnny's is not prone to hyperbole, in my experience. They will definitely be trialed in my field, and in my greenhouse this spring.

[maf]

Indeed, let us see if these varieties match up to the hyperbole. Looking forward to your taste tests Fred...

[Salsacharley]

Since these are all F-1's it is likely that seed saving would be futile for the future unless you wanted to do a big grow out so you have to purchase new seeds each year.

Now if you are growing for market and you buy 50 Marnero seeds for $59.50 ($1.19 each) and you grow 50 plants that produce 30 lbs of fruit each, your $50 seed cost will provide 1,500 lbs of fruit. This is optimistic as to getting 100% plants from 50 seeds and getting 30 lbs of fruit from each plant, but the general gist of the example demonstrates it could be quite profitable. It is not as profitable as having free seeds from saved seeds, growing 100 plants and getting 15 lbs or more of fruit from each one to achieve the same result (if you have the space).

Too bad it takes so darn much work to grow these money trees.

[carolyn137]

I just looked at Manero and if disease tolerance, no such thing as 100% disease resistance, is touted then where are those tolerances listed at the page seen?

Just curious, not going to buy any of those three myself. But since I seldom buy seeds now I don't get the seed catalogs I used to and I really do love reading through them. Yes, if I ask they will send me one, but Pinetree is OK for me now just for carrots and lettuce and cukes and radishes and some summer squash, etc. that Freda grows for me out back. The new catalog has had a makeover and is better organized.

Carolyn, who does think that Johnny's is one of THE best companies out there and I've known them since the first flimsy paper catalog Rob first put out in the 70's.

[travis]

I'm interested in which specific diseases these hybrid tomatoes are resistant to, and whether the resistance is intermediate or more robust.

With regard to the Marnero and Margold, I have working lines of crosses made by Dr. Randolph Gardner that look very similar to those two hybrids. One line came from a cross of NC 1 CELBR x Malachite Box and the other from NC 1 CELBR x Brandywine, or to the best of my knowledge, those are the original hybrids that Dr. Gardner created.

Of course, over the past few years, I've also seen recombinations anywhere from pink, red, black, purple, dark yellow, pure yellow, white, green-when-ripe, and bicolor combos of each of the above.

However, one particular maroon line, and one bicolor deep yellow/red blush line look very much like Marnero and Margold respectively. They both are potato leaf lines, which calls to question the pedigree I give for the Malachite Box cross ... I suppose subsequent accidental outcrossing may have happened in my own garden.

I have no way of testing for late blight resistance in my garden, but all the recombined lines I have grown from the original F2 seeds have shown resistance to early blight.

Does anyone have information as to the documented resistances for Marnero and Margold, and possibly the actual pedigree for these hybrids?

[Fred Hempel]

Margold has resistance to Verticillium, Leaf Mold and TOMV

Marnero has resistance to Fusarium, TOMV, Fusarium Crown and Root Rot and Verticillium.

These represent disease resistance that is documented. They may show disease resistance to other things as well.

Originally Posted by travis

I'm interested in which specific diseases these hybrid tomatoes are resistant to, and whether the resistance is intermediate or more robust.

With regard to the Marnero and Margold, I have working lines of crosses made by Dr. Randolph Gardner that look very similar to those two hybrids. One line came from a cross of NC 1 CELBR x Malachite Box and the other from NC 1 CELBR x Brandywine, or to the best of my knowledge, those are the original hybrids that Dr. Gardner created.

Of course, over the past few years, I've also seen recombinations anywhere from pink, red, black, purple, dark yellow, pure yellow, white, green-when-ripe, and bicolor combos of each of the above.

However, one particular maroon line, and one bicolor deep yellow/red blush line look very much like Marnero and Margold respectively. They both are potato leaf lines, which calls to question the pedigree I give for the Malachite Box cross ... I suppose subsequent accidental outcrossing may have happened in my own garden.

I have no way of testing for late blight resistance in my garden, but all the recombined lines I have grown from the original F2 seeds have shown resistance to early blight.

Does anyone have information as to the documented resistances for Marnero and Margold, and possibly the actual pedigree for these hybrids?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fred Hempel

Margold has resistance to Verticillium, Leaf Mold and TOMV

Marnero has resistance to Fusarium, TOMV, Fusarium Crown and Root Rot and Verticillium.

These represent disease resistance that is documented. They may show disease resistance to other things as well.

I missed those tolerances Fred since they were way down at the lower right and I didn't scroll down that far.

But nothing about tolerances to foliage pathogens which are THE most common tomato diseases.

And Manero only has tolerance to race 1of Fusarium when many other varieties have FF and some even FFF. So one needs to know which F races are prevalent in their own growingarea, at least in the warmer areas where it is prevalent since we in the tunrda see little of it and then, usually to importation of plants from the south or other warm areas that ship plants.

Carolyn

[Fred Hempel]

You are correct, they do not have tolerances to all field pathogens, but are more suited to greenhouse conditions (where Leaf Mold and TOMV) are problematic.

I think they might do well in tunnels, where blights can be limited, but Vert and Fus can still be a problem.

[travis]

While Johnny's Selected Seeds is the only place I can find a reference to Marnero's similarity to Cherokee Purple, I tend to think "a dead ringer for Cherokee Purple" may indeed just be advertising hyperbole without a direct claim by the breeder (unless someone has more documentation).

Why? Well, the breeder/seed corp. (Gautier Semences) releasing the seed refers to Marnero as its "Black Marmande Hybrid," and mar-nero (Italian) seems to refer to Black Sea, possibly.

[travis]

Upon further search, I found the online seed catalog for Gautier Semences:
http://www.gautierseed.com/BIO/Page_...20Bio_2013.pdf

On page 4 of the catalog, Marnero is describe by type as "noire de Crimee" which I take to mean black Crimean, but then I do not speak French.

[FarmerShawn]

Isn't Noire de Crimee the same as Black Krim?

[travis]

Farmershawn, yes, that is the general understanding from a tomato variety point of view.

Is it possible that Black Krim would be more recognizable in European tomato seed markets than Cherokee Purple, and Cherokee Purple more recognizable in U.S. tomato seed markets?

I ask because that may be why Marnero is blurbed as resembling BK in the European catalog and CP in the American catalog.

So, I have to assume at this time that we will not know from which specific parentage this tomato is developed unless the breeder reveals the pedigree. And assuming that no company is above even a wee bit of hyperbole is a bit naïve.

[jmsieglaff]

I won't grow Marnero but just out of curiosity would be interested to see reports if anyone grows it especially side by side with Cherokee purple and black krim. I think it is good to see more breeders working with what apparently is better flavored tomatoes in the hybrid market. Not that I'd pay that premium but it certainly seems like a trend.

[greenthumbomaha]

Not meaning to sound harsh, but what makes these hybrids so much more expensive than a mass marketed hybrid with a hundred seeds for a buck? Exclusivity, research, extra production cost , distribution ...

My neighbors grow pepper hybrids from the 99 cent 4 packs and their yield was very impressive (but very boring). If anyone wants to split orders send me a pm and we'll start a thread if there is enough response.

- Lisa