Dwarf Tomato Project

[Ed of Somis]

I find small snippets of info regarding the dwarf tomato project here and there. However, I do not have much of an understanding about this. I was surprised when I noticed yesterday that some of the "dwarfs" are indeterminates. I assumed the dwarfs would be small determinate plants. Are these mostly indet's that are less aggressive growers?

[Sun City Linda]

All of the new dwarfs are stout, tree like plants and less aggressive growers. Under ideal conditions some can top 5 feet but most stay smaller. An indeterminate tomato vine on the other hand, like Sun Gold or any number of others can go 10-15 feet or more.

[jmsieglaff]

Dwarf indeterminates will continue to grow and set fruit throughout the growing season, but they grow (vertically) much slower, but what they lack in the vertical they make up for with shorter spacing between branches and have much denser foliage. While a determine plant sets and ripens are large portion of its fruit in a short period of time.

I kind of think of the dwarf plants as best of both worlds--steady fruit production of an indeterminate but completely happy in a reasonably sized container. (And obviously are equally happy in the ground.)

[Sun City Linda]

I agree. I am thrilled with the ones I have grown so far. They are happy in a 5 gallon bucket and continue to produce.

[Salsacharley]

How would you compare total seasons production of a dwarf compared to a regular indeterminate in regards to pounds produced for similar type fruit? For example, how many lbs of fruit would a Tasmanian Chocolate produce compared to a Cherokee Chocolate for a whole season?

Originally Posted by Sun City Linda

I agree. I am thrilled with the ones I have grown so far. They are happy in a 5 gallon bucket and continue to produce.

[Sun City Linda]

I have not grown enough to know. Until this year, I have just tried a few as fall to winter planting to see how they do and taste. This year is the first time I am growing about half dozen different varieties of new dwarfs for main crop.

[kayrobbins]

It depends on the dwarf. Sweet Scarlet is my very favorite for taste but it is not a heavy producer. Sweet Sue, Tasmanian Chocolate and Wherokowhai have been more productive for me than my other indeterminates. I have never grown Cherokee Chocolate but I am comparing Tasmanian to Cherokee Purple and Black From Tula. Arkansas Traveler is the only indeterminate that I grow that rivals those dwarfs in productivity.

[nctomatoman]

There is some confusion of terminology, and much of it is more detailed than the average tomato enthusiast/gardener really needs. There are also some strong opinions involved, which is fine - and typical - and expected! - in the gardening world.

There are so many variables involved that generalization is not really easy - size of container, sun exposure, how it is grown, in what type of medium. All of our dwarfs are, genetically speaking, dwarf varieties. They vary in growth habit/type (indeterminate vs determinate) - and because we are using heirloom indeterminates as a crossing partner in most of them, they may be "on the tall side" - meaning that by the end of a long growing season, they will do what the older, original dwarfs like New Big Dwarf and Dwarf Champion do - approach 4-5 feet tall. But compare that to indeterminates that will at the same point in time be 10-12 feet in "length" (the central leader length).

So I consider them to be very slowly vertically growing "indeterminate varieties" - but characterized as Dwarfs by the thick central stem and crinkly rugose type foliage.

Because they have a higher foliage to fruit ratio than true determinates, their flavor potential as a class seems far greater - a fact borne out in the excellence of flavor of many of them.

I am growing all 36 released varieties "side by side" - or, at least in the same growing area, this year, which will provide another chance to compare their relative potential heights. In general, I've found Rosella Purple and Rosella Crimson to be among the more compact (shorter), and the Sneezy line - Summertime Green, Dwarf Sweet Sue, etc - to be the "tallest", relatively speaking. But I find them so much easier to manage when compared to indeterminates - in fact, it isn't even close.

[PaulF]

Having been part of the Dwarf Project since the beginning I can give you my experiences. Some of the varieties I helped with were in the beginning stages and several at the last growouts before they were released.

In my opinion the intention was to grow tomatoes small in stature showing dwarf characteristics of thick stems and rugose leaves; the fruit was to be as large as possible with good flavor.

My contributions were grown both in containers and in ground. Most were grown in the soil. Almost all were less productive than the parents they came from. The process of getting to the expected end product was different on each variety. Some were more productive, some had larger tomatoes, some were taller, some shorter. All were indeterminate. Such is the way of coming up with an end product.

There are, of course, dwarfs not in the Dwarf Project that have been commercially available for many years, but those are not part of my message.

In comparison specifically between Tasmanian Chocolate and Cherokee Chocolate, the Cherokee outproduced Tas by about 3:1 in total fruits and about 50% greater in weight of individual tomatoes on average for the season. This is in my garden grown in the same season, side by side.

This has been a fun endeavor and I will continue to help where and when I can.

[Cole_Robbie]

Originally Posted by PaulF

In comparison specifically between Tasmanian Chocolate and Cherokee Chocolate, the Cherokee outproduced Tas by about 3:1 in total fruits and about 50% greater in weight of individual tomatoes on average for the season. This is in my garden grown in the same season, side by side.
.

I'm hoping I can fit three dwarfs in the space that one indeterminate would occupy, thereby offsetting the lower yield per plant. Plus, three stakes are cheaper than one large cage to support an indeterminate. Time spent pruning and tying back vines should be less, too.

These are my thoughts in trying to grow Dwarf Tasmanian Chocolate as a market tomato for next summer. We shall see if it works out.

[nctomatoman]

Some great comments in this thread.

I think it is important to keep this all in perspective - the project was launched to be fun, to involve as many people as possible, to talk openly and freely about what we are doing, to learn, and to address something my seedling customers were asking for years - what are the options for interesting, great flavored tomatoes without the indeterminate, troublesome to manage vines.

Given that we are all amateur/volunteers, all just in it to learn together and share, with no expectations of anyone making a cent on it - we really succeeded in our mission in a huge way. I am so, so, so proud of what the participants have accomplished together.

In retrospect, we of course could have carried out larger growouts, searched more deeply for the potential in each, been more precise in our goals, taken a more "academic" approach - and had far less fun and success, because it would have eliminated those who could only try a few things.

What I am most proud of is that we have a set of tomatoes that are out there for the court of public opinion to assess and, ultimately, judge on their merits. If they are shared, loved, grown for decades or more, they will all have nice stories to tell. We brought them to a stable state - we didn't put out a lot of early generation specimens that would add to the confusion of what is already a highly confused mass of tomato types. When people grow them, they will know what to expect, and be able to share seeds and grow them again and again.

This is a story that began with some discussions with Patrina on Garden Web back in 2005 - ten years ago! It also began with discussions between my customers and me back in the late 1990s. Here we are, 2015, with 36 cool new varieties and more on the way.

I am so, so proud of this team, what we've done, and really look forward to telling the whole story some day - because it just isn't the tomatoes, it is the people who all contributed.

[gssgarden]

Craig, you mentioned...

Because they have a higher foliage to fruit ratio than true determinates, their flavor potential as a class seems far greater - a fact borne out in the excellence of flavor of many of them.

Would you suggest to prune or not to prune leaves or suckers? Only if signs of disease?

Thanks,

Greg

[MrBig46]

I will grow eight varieties of dwarfs this year. I pruned all indeterminantes varieties. Do I prune dwarves, too? Must I grow dwarfs in a cage or can be tied to the spiral ?
Vladimír

[jmsieglaff]

Originally Posted by MrBig46

I will grow eight varieties of dwarfs this year. I pruned all indeterminantes varieties. Do I prune dwarves, too? Must I grow dwarfs in a cage or can be tied to the spiral ?
Vladimír

In general I do not prune my dwarfs, except if I feel in a certain place the foliage was just too dense and wanted better air circulation. I also ended up pruning one variety to combat foliage fungal issues.

Depending on the variety (and I haven't growing a lot of the varieties), you may want to use cages for medium and larger size fruited plants. The branches can get weighed down by the fruit and eventually break if not supported properly. I use a cage right in my 5 gallon pails (e.g., http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost....84&postcount=4) . I had one branch on the back of one of my plants I didn't notice grew out the cage and I didn't get tied up and it broke.

Justin

[Riceloft]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

I'm hoping I can fit three dwarfs in the space that one indeterminate would occupy, thereby offsetting the lower yield per plant. Plus, three stakes are cheaper than one large cage to support an indeterminate. Time spent pruning and tying back vines should be less, too.

These are my thoughts in trying to grow Dwarf Tasmanian Chocolate as a market tomato for next summer. We shall see if it works out.

Tasmanian Chocolate has been the best producer of all the dwarf's I've grown. In my experience I can get as much from 2 Tas Chocolates as I can from any single indeterminate, or darn close. This is up against varieties like Costoluto Genovese, Big Beef and Cherokee Purple.

As far as making it a market tomato, I've found that they don't keep on the counter as long as some other varieties (but longer than say, Cherokee Purple) so keep that in mind if you haven't had experience with it before.

Originally Posted by MrBig46

I will grow eight varieties of dwarfs this year. I pruned all indeterminantes varieties. Do I prune dwarves, too? Must I grow dwarfs in a cage or can be tied to the spiral ?
Vladimír

I would advise against pruning most of the dwarf varieties. I think Dwarf Golden Heart sprawls more than most others and would assume others in the same line (Nosey) do as well. I did some light pruning to keep it in check when I grew it out.

I use a 5ft wooden stake and one of the small laughable tomato cages for my dwarfs. The only issue I have with this setup is actually Tasmanian Chocolate. It puts out so many strong branches that load up with fruit, and gets up near 4-5ft tall that it threatens to topple over with this setup (and actually did on one plant last season).