Purchasing mycorrhizae

snugglekitten · March 8, 2015

Is it worth the money?

Since it doesn't create fruiting bodies, I feel I have no way to measure the amount that is in the soil.

Does anyone buy this, and if so, does it increase yield?

ChrisK · March 8, 2015

From Dr. Linda Chalker-Scott ("The Garden Professor"):

Sylvia Hacker asked me to talk a little bit about putting microbes in soil -- things like mycorrhizae and fertilizer spiked with "beneficial microbes". Well, it's like this: It's true that some research has found that certain specific types of microbes may be helpful in specific instances, however, as a general rule, adding microbes from off the shelf products isn't useful. The reason is that usually the microbes you purchase off of the shelf aren't even alive. Furthermore, even if the the microbes that you purchase off the shelf are alive you've got to ask yourself whether you're putting them in a location where they can thrive. As an example, what if you take a thousand people and drop them into the middle of the Sahara desert? Would they build a city? How many would even make it out alive? Probably none. Same thing with microbes. If you put microbes into a location where they can't thrive, they won't. A better choice is to just add compost -- that will make your soil more amenable to beneficial microbes and help your soil more in the long run.

Long Story Short -- As things sit now, fertilizer spiked with mycorrhizae and products based on beneficial microbes seem to be more of a marketing tactic than useful amendments for your garden or lawn.

And:

http://www.gardenmyths.com/mycorrhiz...lant-products/

RayR · March 8, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisK

From Dr. Linda Chalker-Scott ("The Garden Professor"):

Sylvia Hacker asked me to talk a little bit about putting microbes in soil -- things like mycorrhizae and fertilizer spiked with "beneficial microbes". Well, it's like this: It's true that some research has found that certain specific types of microbes may be helpful in specific instances, however, as a general rule, adding microbes from off the shelf products isn't useful. The reason is that usually the microbes you purchase off of the shelf aren't even alive. Furthermore, even if the the microbes that you purchase off the shelf are alive you've got to ask yourself whether you're putting them in a location where they can thrive. As an example, what if you take a thousand people and drop them into the middle of the Sahara desert? Would they build a city? How many would even make it out alive? Probably none. Same thing with microbes. If you put microbes into a location where they can't thrive, they won't. A better choice is to just add compost -- that will make your soil more amenable to beneficial microbes and help your soil more in the long run.

Long Story Short -- As things sit now, fertilizer spiked with mycorrhizae and products based on beneficial microbes seem to be more of a marketing tactic than useful amendments for your garden or lawn.

And:

http://www.gardenmyths.com/mycorrhiz...lant-products/

Wrong Garden Professor, that's Robert Pavlis
It's funny that those that say adding microbial inoculants don't work are the same people who have never used them.

ChrisK · March 8, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayR

Wrong Garden Professor, that's Robert Pavlis

The quote was from the Garden profs FB page. The link was to Pavlis' page.

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/.../Hor.../Myths/Mycorrhizae.pdf

RayR · March 8, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisK

The quote was from the Garden profs FB page. The link was to Pavlis' page.

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/.../Hor.../Myths/Mycorrhizae.pdf

Two garden professors that have no first hand experience with mycorrhizal inoculants. Linda Chalker-Scott writes about almost everything in terms of her specialty—landscape perennials. What does that have to do with tender annuals for most of us? We grow vegetables.

ChrisK · March 8, 2015

The no first hand experience comment aside, that's a good question, Ray. I'd be curious if there is good published data on this to date.

There is much we don't know and "biologicals" is a hot area of research.

snugglekitten · March 8, 2015

Thanks for the links, it seems to confirm some of what I thought already.

drew51 · March 8, 2015

I buy them from the manufacturer. I agree I would not buy them in the store. Results have been remarkable. I will always use them. What a difference on my blueberries. Fantastic! It's estimated that spores can live for centuries, so I would always buy spore form.
Some bacteria estimates of spore viability are 6 million years. Fungi are more sensitive. They could die if stored poorly. Why I buy them direct. I'm totally sold on the product. It depends what I want to grow. I like to grow the tropical plant tomato. No native fungi are compatible with these tropical plants. So I add the tropical fungi that is symbiotic with tomatoes. I add more each year as it will not survive our winters. What sold me on them is the large body of scientific studies that show improvement. Some exceptions, and some plants do not use the fungi. Being a Medical Technologist and having worked with fungi my whole life, I understand them well.
I have seen better growth, but that is not proof. I rely on peer research. That is what convinced me to use them.
I usually don't comment as people believe whatever they want to believe and it's hard to change anybodies mind.
So I pay about 6 dollars a year to innocuate 250 plants.
http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/...uble-1-oz.html

snugglekitten · March 10, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew51

I buy them from the manufacturer. I agree I would not buy them in the store. Results have been remarkable. I will always use them. What a difference on my blueberries. Fantastic! It's estimated that spores can live for centuries, so I would always buy spore form.
Some bacteria estimates of spore viability are 6 million years. Fungi are more sensitive. They could die if stored poorly. Why I buy them direct. I'm totally sold on the product. It depends what I want to grow. I like to grow the tropical plant tomato. No native fungi are compatible with these tropical plants. So I add the tropical fungi that is symbiotic with tomatoes. I add more each year as it will not survive our winters. What sold me on them is the large body of scientific studies that show improvement. Some exceptions, and some plants do not use the fungi. Being a Medical Technologist and having worked with fungi my whole life, I understand them well.
I have seen better growth, but that is not proof. I rely on peer research. That is what convinced me to use them.
I usually don't comment as people believe whatever they want to believe and it's hard to change anybodies mind.
So I pay about 6 dollars a year to innocuate 250 plants.
http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/...uble-1-oz.html

Anything fungal from Paul Stamets gets extra points, thanx for link.

Stvrob · March 8, 2015

Dont they already live in the soil Naturally?

RayR · March 8, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stvrob

Dont they already live in the soil Naturally?

Typically only in undisturbed soils with perennials since mycorrhizae need living roots to survive year round. In fallow soil and tilled soils—no way.

Redbaron · March 8, 2015

Well I have used them. I got tremendous benefit. Although I admit, after a few years I expect the benefit to drop off as the native soil health returns.

For the price? Well I use this: MycoGrow. Then instead of trying to inoculate the whole garden, I just inoculate the seedlings. That means for a very small price I get the full benefit of knowing all my seedlings have a good start and have much better drought/heat resistance that those not inoculated. I grew over 500 tomatoes and peppers last year. The cost per plant is minimal.

On the other hand, if you grow in perfect soil with all the fertility and water at optimal conditions, you probably won't need it at all.

heirloomtomaguy · March 8, 2015

I use it every year. I sprinkle a teaspoon into each tomato hole and have noticed a major difference in growth and production. If i did not notice a difference i wouldn't spend 30 bucks a bag for it.

Redbaron · March 8, 2015

Quote:

"While AMFs are not a panacea, they do have their niche and they do work," Davies said. "As we continue to apply BMP to improve pesticide, fertilization and water usage, there is every reason that the 'niche' of incorporating AMF - as a part of the system - will continue to increase."

Dr. Fred T Davies Jr.
Dept. Horticulture Sci., Texas A&M University,

As far as the studies? There are loads of published studies. I don't see the scientific basis for your skepticism.

ChrisK · March 8, 2015

The other thing I was just wondering about is the genetics on the plant side. I would be surprised if there are not significant differences between varieties as far as response to different microorganisms.

Nobody is arguing that microorganisms don't play a huge role in plant growth.

March 8, 2015	#1
snugglekitten BANNED Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Land of the White Eagle Posts: 341	Purchasing mycorrhizae Is it worth the money? Since it doesn't create fruiting bodies, I feel I have no way to measure the amount that is in the soil. Does anyone buy this, and if so, does it increase yield?

March 8, 2015	#2
ChrisK Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,448	From Dr. Linda Chalker-Scott ("The Garden Professor"): Sylvia Hacker asked me to talk a little bit about putting microbes in soil -- things like mycorrhizae and fertilizer spiked with "beneficial microbes". Well, it's like this: It's true that some research has found that certain specific types of microbes may be helpful in specific instances, however, as a general rule, adding microbes from off the shelf products isn't useful. The reason is that usually the microbes you purchase off of the shelf aren't even alive. Furthermore, even if the the microbes that you purchase off the shelf are alive you've got to ask yourself whether you're putting them in a location where they can thrive. As an example, what if you take a thousand people and drop them into the middle of the Sahara desert? Would they build a city? How many would even make it out alive? Probably none. Same thing with microbes. If you put microbes into a location where they can't thrive, they won't. A better choice is to just add compost -- that will make your soil more amenable to beneficial microbes and help your soil more in the long run. Long Story Short -- As things sit now, fertilizer spiked with mycorrhizae and products based on beneficial microbes seem to be more of a marketing tactic than useful amendments for your garden or lawn. And: http://www.gardenmyths.com/mycorrhiz...lant-products/ __________________ Blog: chriskafer.wordpress.com Ignorance more frequently begets knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. --Charles Darwin

March 8, 2015	#6
ChrisK Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,448	The no first hand experience comment aside, that's a good question, Ray. I'd be curious if there is good published data on this to date. There is much we don't know and "biologicals" is a hot area of research. __________________ Blog: chriskafer.wordpress.com Ignorance more frequently begets knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. --Charles Darwin

March 8, 2015	#8
drew51 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Sterling Heights, MI Zone 6a/5b Posts: 1,302	I buy them from the manufacturer. I agree I would not buy them in the store. Results have been remarkable. I will always use them. What a difference on my blueberries. Fantastic! It's estimated that spores can live for centuries, so I would always buy spore form. Some bacteria estimates of spore viability are 6 million years. Fungi are more sensitive. They could die if stored poorly. Why I buy them direct. I'm totally sold on the product. It depends what I want to grow. I like to grow the tropical plant tomato. No native fungi are compatible with these tropical plants. So I add the tropical fungi that is symbiotic with tomatoes. I add more each year as it will not survive our winters. What sold me on them is the large body of scientific studies that show improvement. Some exceptions, and some plants do not use the fungi. Being a Medical Technologist and having worked with fungi my whole life, I understand them well. I have seen better growth, but that is not proof. I rely on peer research. That is what convinced me to use them. I usually don't comment as people believe whatever they want to believe and it's hard to change anybodies mind. So I pay about 6 dollars a year to innocuate 250 plants. http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/...uble-1-oz.html Last edited by drew51; March 8, 2015 at 06:08 PM.

March 8, 2015	#12
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	Well I have used them. I got tremendous benefit. Although I admit, after a few years I expect the benefit to drop off as the native soil health returns. For the price? Well I use this: MycoGrow. Then instead of trying to inoculate the whole garden, I just inoculate the seedlings. That means for a very small price I get the full benefit of knowing all my seedlings have a good start and have much better drought/heat resistance that those not inoculated. I grew over 500 tomatoes and peppers last year. The cost per plant is minimal. On the other hand, if you grow in perfect soil with all the fertility and water at optimal conditions, you probably won't need it at all. __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture

March 8, 2015	#10
Stvrob Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,413	Dont they already live in the soil Naturally?

March 8, 2015	#13
heirloomtomaguy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: glendora ca Posts: 2,560	I use it every year. I sprinkle a teaspoon into each tomato hole and have noticed a major difference in growth and production. If i did not notice a difference i wouldn't spend 30 bucks a bag for it. __________________ “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."