Creating my own hybrid

[Kongobongo]

Hi all.next season I am going to grow some heirlooms.if I cross two heirlooms will the resulting seeds from the fruit be a hybrid ?I'm not trying to create anything to name or anything like that.just some fun for my wife and I.our own backyard hybrid so to speak.thanks.

[Fusion_power]

/Fusion runs to all the windows, pulls down the blinds, closes the door, pulls up a chair and asks " do you want it to be a hybrid?" in a very conspiratorial tone./

Seriously, if you cross two different varieties, the resulting cross is referred to as an F1 hybrid.

[Starlight]

Plant size, possible combinations for fruit I get, but what about when you cross a determinate with an indeterminate. Is one more dominate than the other? Do you get a semi-determinate plant then?

(Fusion... Thanks for the chuckles. : ) )

[Kongobongo]

Would the resulting cross also be more disease resistant?is that usually the case.

[travis]

Originally Posted by Kongobongo

Would the resulting cross also be more disease resistant?is that usually the case.

Not unless both of the "heirloom" parents carried a specific disease resistance that combined heterozygously in the resulting F1 and expressed itself with hybrid vigor.

However, a more likely benefit of crossing two "heirloom" tomato varieties might be greater yield of earlier maturing fruit on a more vigorously growing vine, thereby yielding a greater harvest earlier and ahead of the demise of the vine due to an active disease pressure.

[imp]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

/Fusion runs to all the windows, pulls down the blinds, closes the door, pulls up a chair and asks " do you want it to be a hybrid?" in a very conspiratorial tone./

Seriously, if you cross two different varieties, the resulting cross is referred to as an F1 hybrid.

You've brightened my day a couple times today by making me smile. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Starlight

Plant size, possible combinations for fruit I get, but what about when you cross a determinate with an indeterminate. Is one more dominate than the other? Do you get a semi-determinate plant then?

(Fusion... Thanks for the chuckles. : ) )

In keeping with Fusion's antics....

A Dominate indeterminate plant will take the determinate plant and handcuff it to the tomato cage, maybe blindfold it, and then sometimes takes a squirrel by the tail and swats the determinate plant with the squirrel.**



No harm to actual squirrels or plants were harmed in this scenario, and all were consenting.




Seriously, I am glad some one answered about determinate and indeterminate as I sure as heck didn't know.

[travis]

Originally Posted by Starlight

Plant size, possible combinations for fruit I get, but what about when you cross a determinate with an indeterminate. Is one more dominate than the other? Do you get a semi-determinate plant then?

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

Indeterminate is dominant - the F1 (hybrid) will demonstrate the dominant genes. One of our tactics in our dwarf tomato breeding project is using a dwarf as female. You can then see if a cross took or note very quickly by test growing a few of the seeds in the hybrid fruit. If they are indeterminate, you have a cross. If dwarf, the cross didn't take (you got to the flower too late).

While the indeterminate genetics (sp+) is dominant over the determinate (sp-), and the F1 seed from an indeterminate x determinate indeed will produce an indeterminate plant, that indeterminate plant may clearly exhibit characteristics reflecting its mixed Ind/Det pedigree.

There are determinate genetics, such as the dwarf/determinate and brachytic (br) genes, that will cause an resulting Ind x Det hybrid to have significantly shortened internode spacings.

As to

Originally Posted by Starlight

Do you get a semi-determinate plant then?

, not in the F1 plant, but yes possibly among the subsequent F2, F3 or beyond, you may obtain plants that exhibit the semi-determinate genetics (sdt).

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by travis

While the indeterminate genetics (sp+) is dominant over the determinate (sp-), and the F1 seed from an indeterminate x determinate indeed will produce an indeterminate plant, that indeterminate plant may clearly exhibit characteristics reflecting its mixed Ind/Det pedigree.

There are determinate genetics, such as the dwarf/determinate and brachytic (br) genes, that will cause an resulting Ind x Det hybrid to have significantly shortened internode spacings.

As to , not in the F1 plant, but yes possibly among the subsequent F2, F3 or beyond, you may obtain plants that exhibit the semi-determinate genetics (sdt).

Thank you Travis. Added the information about the shortened internodes to my notes that way when I lose where the threads are, I have the information handy.

[nctomatoman]

Indeterminate is dominant - the F1 (hybrid) will demonstrate the dominant genes. One of our tactics in our dwarf tomato breeding project is using a dwarf as female. You can then see if a cross took or note very quickly by test growing a few of the seeds in the hybrid fruit. If they are indeterminate, you have a cross. If dwarf, the cross didn't take (you got to the flower too late).

[nctomatoman]

it's all in the genes! It is easy to predict the size and color, not easy to predict flavor or reaction to diseases. Depends on the parents and their genes, of course. But I've had hybrids of two delicious tomatoes that don't taste very good - and you could get a cross of average tomatoes be much better. That's what makes it so much fun.

[Kongobongo]

Good to know,thanks

[carolyn137]

I think the link I'm going to put up will answer all the questions you might want to know about how to make crosses, making selections from the initial hybrid, gene segregation and how long it takes to get a stable OP, if that's what you want.

The link is to a website that Keith Mueller has and many here know him very well and know that he got his MS degree with Dr. Randy Gardner, now retired but still breeding tomatoes and also know that he knows more about tomato genetics than most folks.

Be sure to look at all the other info at his site as well.

Start by clicking on CULTURE and you'll see the link to making crosses there and what follows.

Keith has successfully bred many varieties that are known and liked by many.

So here you go:

http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/

I know it will help.

Carolyn

[Gardeneer]

My first attempt ever trying to cross (hybridize ?).

I did take a "X" bud, removed the male part (s) .
And then brought a "Y" flower and shook it on the Naked female of "X".
I Put a fine nylon tulle around i for a week ( prevent any other pollen getting into it ).
This was done more than a month ago:

STATUS UPDATE:
The crossed flower bud is still there , ALIVE. but nothing in growing.

What is the scoop here ? Did it take or not ?
--If did not, then how come it is still there ?
-- If did, how come no fruit is growing out of it ?

Gardeneer

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

Indeterminate is dominant - the F1 (hybrid) will demonstrate the dominant genes. One of our tactics in our dwarf tomato breeding project is using a dwarf as female. You can then see if a cross took or note very quickly by test growing a few of the seeds in the hybrid fruit. If they are indeterminate, you have a cross. If dwarf, the cross didn't take (you got to the flower too late).

Oh , thank you so much for the explanation. That was a question I had wondering about for awhile now. Like others here, we are not professionals, but think it would be fun to just dabble around and see what happens.

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

My first attempt ever trying to cross (hybridize ?).

I did take a "X" bud, removed the male part (s) .
And then brought a "Y" flower and shook it on the Naked female of "X".
I Put a fine nylon tulle around i for a week ( prevent any other pollen getting into it ).
This was done more than a month ago:

STATUS UPDATE:
The crossed flower bud is still there , ALIVE. but nothing in growing.

What is the scoop here ? Did it take or not ?
--If did not, then how come it is still there ?
-- If did, how come no fruit is growing out of it ?

Gardeneer

How long as it been since you tried to make your cross? Maybe some of the professionals will chime in, but one thing I have learned from a few folks here is that, not all crosses will take.

Some of the reasons could be that your pollen was still to wet to work with or had dried up. Only way I know of to see if you have nice fluffy, possible viable pollen is with a magnifying glass.

Another reason, that even though you removed petals, you may not have a good enough exposed stigma. One thing I learned from Joseph with his bumblee project was that open flowers and exposed stigmas were better for trying to hybridize.

Joseph's drawing of how some can look. The more closed and recessed the less chance of getting pollen out.

Which is why I think some folks say the chances of cross pollination unless you have a ton of pollinators is pretty low.

When I first started trying to learn how to hvbridize Daylilies, I had tags of crosses all over the place where I had hand pollenated, or so I thought. Took me two years of practice of watching pods abort or blossoms just drop tags all on the ground til I learned. Took more years after that before I was able to learn to gather pollen at the right time and start to get pods.

There is another reason and some folks may argue the point, but some plants flowers just seem to not like to be bagged. They won't produce a fruit if bagged. Maybe the material irritates them or not enough air or something, but they will drag their feet about making a tomato.

From reading what the professional tomato growers post here , it takes them years of practice and the biggest thing is patience. Lots of years of practice and patience with the hopes that they will be successful.

For myself, I am enjoying learning what I can from folks here. Lots of mentors to learn from. I do enjoy dabbing and maybe next year I will try and make a cross or two just for the fun of it. Maybe it will work and maybe it won't. My main concern has been to learn first to try and grow the best possible healthy plants that I can. Learning to grow them healthy and disease free. TV folks have been the best for teaching how to do that. Once that is mastered well, then it might be time to try crossing just for fun.
For now it is a case of learning, storing information, and being able to enjoy eating garden fresh tomatoes from their sharing knowledge.

[Starlight]

Opps... Forgot Joseph's drawing.