Riesentraube Comparisons

[AlittleSalt]

Many of you know that I grew tomatoes last year that were supposed to be Riesentraube. However the tomatoes grew bigger than what they were supposed to and they had a Valentines heart shape to them. I called them VHS Cherry.

The first picture from left to right - Riesentraube (2013), VHS Cherry (2 of them), and Raisedasnob from Worth (2007)

The second picture from overhead the two VHS Cherry plants are on the left side.

I plan on growing them side by side in the garden and will share pictures if and when they start growing and producing.

[Gardeneer]

I am also growing Riesentraube , for the first time this year .
Some internet pictures show the fruits as round and some elongated with a nipple.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

I am also growing Riesentraube , for the first time this year .
Some internet pictures show the fruits as round and some elongated with a nipple.

If the fruits always look round from any angle that is wrong for the variety.

Tania shows round fruits,but the fruits should have a nipple, and see my comment below about that.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...07.9G4k3aU2k2I

In the above link you'll see several pictures of fruits with nipples.

It was SSE member Curtis Choplin who first got this variety from the German Seed Bank at Gatersleben and he SSE listed and I was among the first to request and get seeds.

It has a German name but is NOT German in origin.It was widely grown in Europe and in Hungary it was known as Goat's T*t because of the nipple at the blossom end

If you look in my tomato book on page 211 you'll see a picture,and see several with that nipple,which brings up a very good point,no pun intended,well yes it was.

You can ONLY see the nipples if the fruits are on their sides since looking down on them you might think they were round cherry tomatoes.

Carolyn

[AlittleSalt]

The first picture is from http://www.rareseeds.com/riesentraube-tomato/

The second picture is why I named whatever I grew last year VHS Cherry. It is a multiflora and pointed like a Riesentraube - here's the pictures

[AlittleSalt]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

The first picture is from http://www.rareseeds.com/riesentraube-tomato/

The second picture is why I named whatever I grew last year VHS Cherry. It is a multiflora and pointed like a Riesentraube - here's the pictures

I forgot to mention. The yellow tomatoes in post 4 are Yellow Riesentraube.

Both plants get very big.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

If the fruits always look round from any angle that is wrong for the variety.

Tania shows round fruits,but the fruits should have a nipple, and see my comment below about that.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...07.9G4k3aU2k2I

In the above link you'll see several pictures of fruits with nipples.

It was SSE member Curtis Choplin who first got this variety from the German Seed Bank at Gatersleben and he SSE listed and I was among the first to request and get seeds.

It has a German name but is NOT German in origin.It was widely grown in Europe and in Hungary it was known as Goat's T*t because of the nipple at the blossom end

If you look in my tomato book on page 211 you'll see a picture,and see several with that nipple,which brings up a very good point,no pun intended,well yes it was.

You can ONLY see the nipples if the fruits are on their sides since looking down on them you might think they were round cherry tomatoes.

Carolyn

Picture on the link (Tania's data base) support what I have previously said. i.e, some are round , some are elongated . Nipple is different thing.
Here are 2 picture from Tania's\

Gardeneer

[JLJ_]

While it's not one of my main (hopeful) projects, I'm also growing Riesentraube for the first time this year . . . because Worth TOLD me to . . . (in a discussion where I said "I'm always looking for good cherries. (By 'good' I mean cherries with boring old fashioned tomato flavor.)"

Wouldn't you know it would turn out to be a tomato with at least mildly puzzling aspects? :/

I virtuously looked at page 211 (and reread page 210 in THE tomato book).

The picture on 211 did look to me as if it had round as well as more oblong fruit -- a couple of the fruit near the bottom, for example, appear to show a side view with a hint of nipple, but look pretty round. It is true, though, that a picture can be deceptive as it's hard to be sure about view angles.

I was more startled by the remark on page 210 that, when Carolyn grew it from saved seeds, two of three plants did not have the large fruit clusters typical of the variety.

That could suggest crossed seed, but my recollection is that in days of yore, when able to get out with her tomatoes, Carolyn said that she let her plants grow along the ground, separated varieties by at least several feet, and selected seed-fruit that had formed in low pollinator season, in the middle of a plant or of a group of same variety plants, all to minimize chances of getting seed from a crossed fruit. So if the cluster size variation was from crossed seeds, perhaps Riesentraube has an unusually vigorous tendency to frolic with the pollinators?

If not that, perhaps it has a little genetic variation still in its DNA that might account for not only variation in size of fruit clusters but also for some degree of variation in fruit shape? Perhaps variation that manifests itself more under certain environmental conditions?

Unlike what appeared to me to be some rounder fruits in Carolyn's picture, the picture Salt posted of rareseeds.com fruit seem to be nearly all sort of pear shaped, and some with good side views appear not to have even a small nipple. And Salt's own supposed-to-be-Riesentraube last year look almost like a doubled grape shape, some with a small nipple. And if Worth did name a 2007 version of the tomato Raisedasnob perhaps it had some variation, too? Perhaps a tip like a turned up nose?

A description like 'elongated with a pointed tip' would make me think of an image like Gardeneer posted on the left, but if they are supposed to look like a goat's lactation equipment, 'elongated with a pointed tip' should look more like the Riesentraubes here

http://riverrim.blogspot.com/2006_09_01_archive.html

which don't look at all like grapes but do look somewhat like . . .

Perhaps that's why the Hungarians gave their tomato a different name?

If it was brought to this country in the 1800's (or earlier) by the Pennsylvania Deutsch (often misidentified in this country as Pennsylvania Dutch), that might argue for it being a German variety that spread throughout Europe, as well as back to the Americas. With a tomato this old, it would seem that there is likely good European info on its history somewhere. Probably old European records would also indicate its tendency, or lack thereof, to exhibit variation in shape and in cluster size that might, if present, require more rigorous roguing to maintain the desired configuration.

As great taste is its most widely praised feature, it makes one think that it would be interesting if one or more of the big tomato tasting gatherings solicited Riesentraubes of differing appearance to see if the taste also varies or not. Or perhaps there's a student somewhere in need of a topic for a minor research project.

Looks as if this thread could be interesting if many Riesentraube growers report on their fruit shape, cluster size, consistency from generation to generation of saved seed, and variations such as what Salt found.

I just hope mine survives the vole and weather perils and produces fruit with old fashioned tomato flavor. But if it does I suppose I'll be more motivated than I might otherwise be to try to get some blossoms bagged and look at generational consistency.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JLJ_

While it's not one of my main (hopeful) projects, I'm also growing Riesentraube for the first time this year . . . because Worth TOLD me to . . . (in a discussion where I said "I'm always looking for good cherries. (By 'good' I mean cherries with boring old fashioned tomato flavor.)"

Wouldn't you know it would turn out to be a tomato with at least mildly puzzling aspects? :/

I virtuously looked at page 211 (and reread page 210 in THE tomato book).

The picture on 211 did look to me as if it had round as well as more oblong fruit -- a couple of the fruit near the bottom, for example, appear to show a side view with a hint of nipple, but look pretty round. It is true, though, that a picture can be deceptive as it's hard to be sure about view angles.

I was more startled by the remark on page 210 that, when Carolyn grew it from saved seeds, two of three plants did not have the large fruit clusters typical of the variety.

That could suggest crossed seed, but my recollection is that in days of yore, when able to get out with her tomatoes, Carolyn said that she let her plants grow along the ground, separated varieties by at least several feet, and selected seed-fruit that had formed in low pollinator season, in the middle of a plant or of a group of same variety plants, all to minimize chances of getting seed from a crossed fruit. So if the cluster size variation was from crossed seeds, perhaps Riesentraube has an unusually vigorous tendency to frolic with the pollinators?

If not that, perhaps it has a little genetic variation still in its DNA that might account for not only variation in size of fruit clusters but also for some degree of variation in fruit shape? Perhaps variation that manifests itself more under certain environmental conditions?

Unlike what appeared to me to be some rounder fruits in Carolyn's picture, the picture Salt posted of rareseeds.com fruit seem to be nearly all sort of pear shaped, and some with good side views appear not to have even a small nipple. And Salt's own supposed-to-be-Riesentraube last year look almost like a doubled grape shape, some with a small nipple. And if Worth did name a 2007 version of the tomato Raisedasnob perhaps it had some variation, too? Perhaps a tip like a turned up nose?

A description like 'elongated with a pointed tip' would make me think of an image like Gardeneer posted on the left, but if they are supposed to look like a goat's lactation equipment, 'elongated with a pointed tip' should look more like the Riesentraubes here

http://riverrim.blogspot.com/2006_09_01_archive.html

which don't look at all like grapes but do look somewhat like . . .

Perhaps that's why the Hungarians gave their tomato a different name?

If it was brought to this country in the 1800's (or earlier) by the Pennsylvania Deutsch (often misidentified in this country as Pennsylvania Dutch), that might argue for it being a German variety that spread throughout Europe, as well as back to the Americas. With a tomato this old, it would seem that there is likely good European info on its history somewhere. Probably old European records would also indicate its tendency, or lack thereof, to exhibit variation in shape and in cluster size that might, if present, require more rigorous roguing to maintain the desired configuration.

As great taste is its most widely praised feature, it makes one think that it would be interesting if one or more of the big tomato tasting gatherings solicited Riesentraubes of differing appearance to see if the taste also varies or not. Or perhaps there's a student somewhere in need of a topic for a minor research project.

Looks as if this thread could be interesting if many Riesentraube growers report on their fruit shape, cluster size, consistency from generation to generation of saved seed, and variations such as what Salt found.

I just hope mine survives the vole and weather perils and produces fruit with old fashioned tomato flavor. But if it does I suppose I'll be more motivated than I might otherwise be to try to get some blossoms bagged and look at generational consistency.

Just a few points.

If you had been next to me when harvesting fruits you would have seen that every fruit had a nipple.I've already spoken to the photgraphy issue as to which part of a fruit is seen.

Second,it's well know that for multiflora's that they produce up to several hundreds of blossoms,but only set probably less than 100,and usually less than that. I see no reason to sugggest that just b'c one plant when planted at the same time in the same season sets more/less fruits is reason to suspect any kind of cross pollination or mutation.

I have offered seeds for this variety at several places from the maybe mid 80's onward,and still had seeds to growout for the picture you see in my tomato book. To wit, from feedback I would have known if there was a problem.

Each variety is an example of genetic diversity within that variety and it's not unusual to have maybe 3 of the same in a row and see differences in fruit size,internode difference and production, etc.,at least in my opinion having grown several thousands of varieties.

And it's one of the major reasons to NEVER save seeds from just ONE fruit on a plant,save seeds from several fruits of different sizes on one plant,better still is to save many fruits from several plants of the same variety,all of which helps to preserve the genetic diversity for that variety.

The Hugarians gave it the name they did, and the Goat's T*t was translated from the Hungarian,since there was no reason at all to call it Riesentraube,by the German name we know it by.

Actually the name Riesentraube probably wasn't even known until seeds for it were given to the German Seedbank in Gatersleben,Germany where they decided to call it a giant bunch of grapes,and remember that not all grapes are round,especially back then. And what was back then?It's known that some from Germany and surrounding areas came to the US and brought seeds with them,and it was being grown in PA in about 1850 or so.

Many used the fruits to make wine,I was sent some several years ago by WWW, who lives in PA, who also sent his recipe to Craig and myself to be published in the International newsletter we did called Off The Vine,and it was like a pale sherry and was delicious.

I just looked at the listings for it in my 2016 SSE YEarbook,and several gave wrong information,saying it was originally a commercial variety in Germany,it was not,saying it originated in Germany,it isn't know exactly where it was first found but as I said before it was widely grown in many european countries.

Of the many who listed it almost all noted a beak or nose or nipple at the blossom end. Some did not describe the fruits at all.

Last summer Rob,my local person who grows my seedlings for me brought me a 6 pack of Zluta Kytice,an excellent multiflora,I give him the seeds for the ones he grows for me.I only wanted one plant so gave away the other 5 and 3/5 were grown by folks near to me,and I asked them to bring me a few trusses of fruits and one flower stalk with just blossoms so I could compare with my one plant from what Freda brought in to me.

And what do YOU think I was able to conclude?

Carolyn, planning on having Rob grow seedlings of several other multiflora's for me this summer,new ones I haven't grown before.He's switched jobs,so fingers xed he can still help.



Carolyn

[Worth1]

All I know is the plant that is the biggest is the seed you got from me.

Where those saved by me or in a package I dont remember?

Worth

[AlittleSalt]

Tomato Growers

I potted up some peppers today from seeds from TG 2007 too

[Worth1]

I honestly cant say what mine looked like I know they had teats and I am pretty sure they had a sort of a heart shape.
I dont even know how many I am growing this year I think 4 or 5 one is still in a gallon container.
Keep in mind all of mine have been grown in real soil not a potting mix and allowed to fully ripen on the vine to a stop sign red.

Worth

[Gardeneer]

Now that , maybe the question of fruit shape is exhausted, and while you are at it , I have a question:

How big does the plant normally get , in height ? Can I plant it in a 12 gallon container and expect some decent crop ? I think I have read somewhere that it gets 3 to 4ft tall. But it is better to hear it from you who have grown it last year.
Thank a great bunch

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Now that , maybe the question of fruit shape is exhausted, and while you are at it , I have a question:

How big does the plant normally get , in height ? Can I plant it in a 12 gallon container and expect some decent crop ? I think I have read somewhere that it gets 3 to 4ft tall. But it is better to hear it from you who have grown it last year.
Thank a great bunch

10 feet with neglect.
Worth

[korney19]

Originally Posted by Worth1

10 feet with neglect.
Worth

A 3x7ft raised bed here! plus 1 aisle!

[AlittleSalt]

Early results First picture is VHS Cherry and the Second is Raisedasnob