using older seeds

[Fred Westcott]

I don't like to throw away older seeds if there is still some viability and I like the variety. I have a lot of varieties that I bought for 2009, and grew them out for several years. I read some time ago that a lot of tomato seed remains viable 8 to 10 years.
How many seeds do I need to plant per cell to get one to germinate ?
Thanks.

[oakley]

10 year old seeds i do three per cell but it really is how they are stored. Cool and dry.
I use freezer zip-locks with oxygen absorbers. My seed suitcase is metal lined with cedar. locks tight to keep critters out.

Some do testing by putting a few on a damp-ish p-towel and place in a bag or a damp coffee filter. Many methods me thinks.

I have seeds i've found from 20 yrs ago that have given 20%. And some french tiny melons that gave one out of 20.

I tend to get sloppy in the garden so only take down what i'm planting that day. Moisture is the enemy.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fred Westcott

I don't like to throw away older seeds if there is still some viability and I like the variety. I have a lot of varieties that I bought for 2009, and grew them out for several years. I read some time ago that a lot of tomato seed remains viable 8 to 10 years.
How many seeds do I need to plant per cell to get one to germinate ?
Thanks.

I just did a long post for someone at idig about this, after Mischka bought idig he asked me to be a Mod there as I am here,but I'll skip all of that and just say,that I never sowed seeds in cells as in a couple of seeds/cell,I sowed them in rows in 20 row professional inserts or in those great 8 X 8 inch green permanest containers,in rows.

Then take a small seedling from there and transfer to cells @1/cell.

Even easier if you have enough seeds is to just double sow,BUT we just had a long thread here on the difference between direct sowing and planting seeds just once,and doing it directly into cells means you probably will get a tap root structure,which is not as good as a fibrous roots tructure.

I can find that link if you want me to.

And yes viability of seeds does wane after seveal years,but up to 5 yo I just sow normally,from 5 to maybe 10to 12 years I double sow and beyond that I use special treatment to try and get them going,my best save to date is 22 yo seeds of Septmeber Dawn.

But I would only use the latter if the variety was one where no seeds are available,or very rare,etc

Carolyn

[Fred Westcott]

I don't use any particular care in saving seeds, but they have had moderate temps and moderate humidity. I've had fairly good luck so far with different veggie seeds.
My problem now is that I'm trying to beat the clock if I want to get a seven week seedling.

Carolyn, I'll have to look into idig.... didn't know about it. And yes, I'd be grateful for the link.
I didn't know there was a different root system as per the method of sowing. How does that affect the plant? I did have some Green Doctors seeds sprout in the garden last summer from the previous year's rotten fruit. They grew up and produced a lot of fruit by the end of the season, I was surprised. I'm at 1100 ft. near the PA and NY borders , more continental climate, zone 6. I wonder if I should try some early varieties in the garden from seed.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fred Westcott

I don't use any particular care in saving seeds, but they have had moderate temps and moderate humidity. I've had fairly good luck so far with different veggie seeds.
My problem now is that I'm trying to beat the clock if I want to get a seven week seedling.

Carolyn, I'll have to look into idig.... didn't know about it. And yes, I'd be grateful for the link.
I didn't know there was a different root system as per the method of sowing. How does that affect the plant? I did have some Green Doctors seeds sprout in the garden last summer from the previous year's rotten fruit. They grew up and produced a lot of fruit by the end of the season, I was surprised. I'm at 1100 ft. near the PA and NY borders , more continental climate, zone 6. I wonder if I should try some early varieties in the garden from seed.

Fred I did a cut and paste from the post at idig and here it is

(Nope,no need to store tomato seeds in a freezer but if you do you have to dry them down to about 6-8% moisture content,using a dessicant and measuring the moisture content with those little strips..

I have never thrown out any seeds I've saved since 1990,some of the earliest ones were stored in Scintillation plastic vials that I'd liberated from work when they got a new scintillation counter,and there were 100 vials to the box and I had many such boxes that are still here at home.

Then I had to switch to just storing them in regular envelopes,in #1 coin envelopes.

And all of the above at normal ambient temps and humidity.

The good thing about storing all those seeds was that it wasn't unusual for some varieties to not be what they were supposed to be , usually via cross pollinations and/or mutations, so I was able to send correct seeds to Tania at her wonderful database website,Remy and and other places as well/

With the exception of most heart varieties,the seeds are OK up to maybe 5 yo,and after that I would just double sow,but beyond about 10-12 yo I'd use some special treatments to get them going, if needed.

No freezer here or anywhere where I could store the many thousands of tomato seeds I now have.

So don't think you have to store the seeds in the freezer.

Long term storage for the USDA means preserving the seeds by storing them at minus 20 centigrade, not F, for most places.)

And I should have added that it does depend on how you do store your seeds.

idig is a sister site to this one , there's a thread about it somewhere,I forget where right now,after Jere Gettle of Baker Creek put idig up for sale on Amazon,and Mischka bought it.Then there was a server problem here at Tville all were directed to go to idig until the server problem was solved

Several from here still post there as well,but idig has always had folks there that know each other and more and more are coming back since they find it's a different place now without all the spam there used to be.

I joined idig in 2006 and shortly after that M opened up Tville.

HEre's the link for taproot and fibrous root structure.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=40526

I'm way north of you in upstate NY on the VT border, zone 5 and when it was still possible for me to grow my own tomatoes I could grow anything so I don't see that you have to grow all early varieties,well maybe some,but IMO, most of the midseason ones taste much better.

Carolyn, who will not be without tomatoes,I give seeds of the ones I want grown here to a local young man,he raises the seedlings,and Freda,who does all the outside work here now,since I can't,takes care of them for me and brings in the harvest, and much more than just tomatoes as well..

[Fred Westcott]

"I'm way north of you in upstate NY on the VT border, zone 5 and when it was still possible for me to grow my own tomatoes I could grow anything so I don't see that you have to grow all early varieties,well maybe some,but IMO, most of the midseason ones taste much better."

So if I garden sow late season varieties they will produce for me ?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fred Westcott

"I'm way north of you in upstate NY on the VT border, zone 5 and when it was still possible for me to grow my own tomatoes I could grow anything so I don't see that you have to grow all early varieties,well maybe some,but IMO, most of the midseason ones taste much better."

So if I garden sow late season varieties they will produce for me ?

I think it's best to first try to set some guidelines as to what early and mid and late season mean.Many vendors say something like 72 days for variety X,which is a laugh.Linda Sapp at TGS (tomato growers supply)was once asked the difference between rutgers and rutgers Improved and she said with a laugh,2 days.

I think it's best to use a range of days to indicate early and mid and late season rather than a single day.

I gave such a range in my heirloom tomato book and Glenn at Sandhill gives one quite similar

Very Early, 55 days or less
Early, 55-70 days
Midseason, 70-85 days
Late, over 85 days

He's in IA and that works for him,but for me anything over 80 days for me is late season, and most of the time it's been the gold/red bicolors that have been that late.

But weather in any one season can differ as well.

So if you grow late season varieties,how ever you might wish to define them,then yes,most years in NJ you can do that. But I can also tell you that one year the first killing frost hit my tomatoes on September 7 and another year on September 12,and yes I do remember those dates very well.

If weather prevents a person from setting out plants when they should do it, then that's another problem, yet another variable that cannot be controlled.

And some years first killing frost isn't until late Oct where I am,so no generalities can be defined as I see it.

Having grown up on what we call a truck farm here in the East, our successes and failures were determined by the weather.Hail storms in June,there go the tomatoes and young squash, and peppers,etc.

I am still the farmer's daughter and spend far too much time at weather sites,and radar,and can't help it.

I hope that helps,

Carolyn

[AlittleSalt]

I have tomato and pepper plants growing in our gardens that came from 2007. I got them from Worth last year. Without answering for him, I'm pretty sure he didn't save them in a freezer or anything like that.

I have stored them in our house in the packs and box he mailed them to us in.

[Fred Westcott]

Good to know. Germination rate ?

[AlittleSalt]

Originally Posted by Fred Westcott

Good to know. Germination rate ?

Tomato seeds near 100%

Peppers around 25%

[Hunt-Grow-Cook]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

I have tomato and pepper plants growing in our gardens that came from 2007. I got them from Worth last year. Without answering for him, I'm pretty sure he didn't save them in a freezer or anything like that.

I have stored them in our house in the packs and box he mailed them to us in.

Salt traded some Green Giant seeds with me that he got from Worth as well, dated 2007 or 2008 on the bag, cant remember. Did a little soak in water with a tiny bit of Miracle grow and Vital Fish(dehydrated fish emulsion) All but 2 of the 8 seeds sown came up.

[Fred Westcott]

I'm surprised that tomato seeds are so resilient...good to know, and happy I did not pitch the whole lot and buy new. I guess I have seed for a hundred varieties, most what I consider to be very good tomatoes.

[ContainerTed]

Fred, I always look at it this way. If I'm going to grow older seeds so that I can harvest and have new seeds of a particular variety, then I'll plant a bunch of the old seeds and choose one or more seedlings that appear to be healthy, vigorous and true to type. I use containers such as drink cups and do the dense planting technique. The picture below shows exactly that. As I encounter germination problems with a variety, I dense plant lots of seeds to get a good seedling to grow. I also do this when I think I need a dozen or more plants for some reason. It just makes thing easier and I get to choose the best of the bunch.

With the new seeds, the old seeds can be disposed of in some way. Somebody might want them, or whatever. I had some that got frozen and were 100% non viable. I put them in my brother's bird feeder. No wasting things around me. Everything has some value to someone or something.

[Fred Westcott]

Ted, I think that is better than what I planned. Cull the weaker seedlings. How long do you wait before you take out the weaker ? And does weaker mean smaller, color, fewer leaves ?

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by Fred Westcott

Ted, I think that is better than what I planned. Cull the weaker seedlings. How long do you wait before you take out the weaker ? And does weaker mean smaller, color, fewer leaves ?

The key is will the plant survive "potting up"

Fred, I'm not sure how to answer this one. But I just know when a seedling is better than the one right next to it (at least at that moment in time). After thinking on it a few minutes, I think it's more about the vigor of the plant and to some degree its size. When I separate the roots during pot up, sometimes the better looking plant loses it root system. When it comes down to it, if I have lots of choices, I tend to take the larger ones first. It's all about how much trouble the little thing will be to get to maturity. But, some plants get spindly, leggy, and without a lot of leaves, and they still might make the cut on my selections.

If I don't have many to choose from, then they all might get the extra attention. I'd say you need to assess and then manage your time.

Hope this helps