Heirloom VS F1 Hybrids

xellos99 · July 9, 2016

This has probably been done to death somewhere but here goes again.
I know the basics about combining disease resistance of two varieties and seed saving differences etc.

What I am interested in though is hybrid vigour.
Do they really grow faster, stronger, bigger yield etc ?
I have 21 toms this year but all are Heirloom and they are doing fine but I cant help wonder if I should swich to all F1 hybrids next year to chase this vigour they speak of.

Any thoughts on this ?
Cheers

UFXEFU · July 9, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by xellos99

This has probably been done to death somewhere but here goes again.
I know the basics about combining disease resistance of two varieties and seed saving differences etc.

What I am interested in though is hybrid vigour.
Do they really grow faster, stronger, bigger yield etc ?
I have 21 toms this year but all are Heirloom and they are doing fine but I cant help wonder if I should swich to all F1 hybrids next year to chase this vigour they speak of.

Any thoughts on this ?
Cheers

Over the years I have grown F1 hybrid, Heirloom, and OP. I can not see the hybrid grown faster, stronger, or produce more over all. It really depends on the varieties not whether it's hybrid or heirloom. Soil and weather conditions will effect growing faster, stronger, and production rather than hybrid vs heirloom.

NarnianGarden · July 9, 2016

I think some varieties really exhibit the famous 'hybrid vigor', no smoke without a fire ...

Having grown only cherry hybrids, no largerr-fruited ones, I have definitely seen very long trusses and prolific growth. For me, that is a great trait, if combined with good flavor.
I have also seen very prolific OP cherries, especially Gardener's delight...

This year, my hybrid cherry is Pink Baby Plum. My mom has the main plant and it has long fruit trusses, I only have little side branches that I rooted and planted. That way, I can save space and still get to taste a truss or two.

xellos99 · July 9, 2016

I found this picture.
The middle plant is supposedly the hybrid

gardeninglee · July 11, 2016

Wow a picture really is worth a thousand words!

zipcode · July 11, 2016

The stuff about hybrid vigor, is a question that could probably be answered by the amateur breeders around here. I have made only one cross which I have taken to f9+, and I'd say the overall vigor of the plant went down a bit from f1-f3 to the final thing. The selection was based on taste mostly and late blight resistance (the great taste was there since f1).
So I'd say there is some truth to it in my limited experience.
But I think the major advantage of the commercial F1s is not in this vigor but in the 'rare', 'newer' traits introduced by breeding with some wild tomatoes that I guess they have scouts for. Stabilizing some of those productive F1 cherries will still give you something vastly more productive than most old OP cherries.

brownrexx · July 11, 2016

I like to grow both hybrids and heirlooms so that I have the best of both worlds.

Hybrid varieties are bred for certain characteristics, one of which may be increased production but a lot of times it is resistance to certain diseases. Heirlooms usually lack this disease resistance and that is why I grow some hybrids in addition to the heirlooms.

My Big Beef hybrid is my most reliable producer with heavy yields and I always grow it so that I am assured of having enough tomatoes for all of my sauce and canning needs.

I don't know that you can say that it produces more tomatoes just because it is a hybrid though.

ilex · July 11, 2016

The main reason for having hybrid tomatoes is more money for seed companies.

I'm not a tomato breeder, but my impression is that there's probably some hybrid vigor at least in some cases. In other cases it's not obvious and I doubt it's even there. It's far from corn for example. That's based on casual observation of natural crosses and whatever I read about it or played selecting something.

FredB · July 11, 2016

Unlike corn, tomatoes are mostly self-pollinators, so it is unlikely they would show much hybrid vigor. I can think of two main reasons for F1 hybrids:

1. It gets logistically very difficult to combine a large number of genetic traits such as disease resistance, crack resistance, productivity, color, flavor, etc. into a single OP variety. For instance, if you are aiming to combine 12 traits into a new variety, it's much easier to combine 6 traits in one parent and another 6 traits in the other parent and then make an F1 hybrid than to create an OP variety with all 12 traits.

2. If you are a breeder, you want to get paid for the new variety you put so much time and effort into creating. With an OP variety, anyone can grow seed and sell it without paying the breeder. The breeder can get a PVP (sort of like a patent) on their variety, but PVPs are expensive and cumbersome to get and hard to enforce. On the other hand, an F1 hybrid won't breed true, so seed can only be created by the breeder or someone to whom the breeder supplies the parent lines.

Fred

M.SeanF. · July 11, 2016

In my opinion, Sungold is the perfect example of both hybrid vigor and combination of traits that are hard to fix in an OP version. Around here it's the ONLY hybrid grown by the anti-GMO types.

AlittleSalt · July 11, 2016

Another way of looking at this question without the VS part:

There are so many OPs that are not hybrids or heirlooms. At one time, all tomatoes started as F1s that eventually become OP - even without human help. Wild tomatoes produce hundreds of tomatoes.

The way I see tomatoes, you find ones you like - and you grow those. Try some others along the way - you might find some hybrids, OPs, wild, and Heirlooms you like more.

How well any of them grow and produce is up the grower and growing conditions.

Gerardo · July 12, 2016

Those pictures can be deceptive and are usually part of a marketing scheme.

I like them all, hybrids and OPs.

Go 50/50 next year, that way you can decide which ones work best for your garden.

Mt. Magic and Sungold are two hybrid tomato machines.

Some hybrids can get pricey, and yes, they do have lots of mojo.

NarnianGarden · July 12, 2016

I think SunGold is a perfectly justified hybrid

So many people around the world cannot be wrong... it is a nice taste, and I hope it will remain available for future growers and eaters.

In my humble opinion, there are other unique-tasting cherries that are OP and SunGold's equal (not its duplicate).
The problem with hybrids is that breeding houses are known to introduce and then discontinue many F1 varieties. New ones flood the market every year claiming to be the brightest, the best, the smartest, the strongest..

FredB · July 13, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

I think SunGold is a perfectly justified hybrid

So many people around the world cannot be wrong... it is a nice taste, and I hope it will remain available for future growers and eaters.

In my humble opinion, there are other unique-tasting cherries that are OP and SunGold's equal (not its duplicate).
The problem with hybrids is that breeding houses are known to introduce and then discontinue many F1 varieties. New ones flood the market every year claiming to be the brightest, the best, the smartest, the strongest..

Has anyone noticed changes in Sungold F1? I have the impression that the tomatoes are bigger now than they were when it first came out, and occasionally I get a plant that doesn't seem to have the fruity smell. I wonder if the breeder is fiddling with one of the parent lines. This could be another drawback of hybrids.

Yet another disadvantage of hybrids is they can't be easily used as breeding material (except by the original breeder). For instance, if I wanted to create a version of Brandywine that is resistant to early blight, I would back-cross Brandywine several times against a variety with EB resistance, selecting for resistant plants each generation. In 5 or 6 years I would have a variety that closely resembled Brandywine but with EB resistance. On the other hand, trying to create an EB-resistant version of Big Beef Hybrid would be a nightmare, because I would have to stabilize the various features that make Big Beef attractive while at the same time selecting for EB resistance.

Having said that, I always grow a mix of heirlooms and hybrids because some hybrids have unique advantages, Sungold being a good example.

Fred

Ricky Shaw · July 12, 2016

Right now, hands down it's hybrids on production in the garden. The Brandy Boys and Big Beef were planted a week later, and the majority of the heirlooms have less than half their set fruit.

At this point only Crnkovic Yugoslavian, Elgin Pink, and Cosmonaut Volkov are close. All this could change of course.

July 9, 2016	#1
xellos99 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: wales uk Posts: 236	Heirloom VS F1 Hybrids This has probably been done to death somewhere but here goes again. I know the basics about combining disease resistance of two varieties and seed saving differences etc. What I am interested in though is hybrid vigour. Do they really grow faster, stronger, bigger yield etc ? I have 21 toms this year but all are Heirloom and they are doing fine but I cant help wonder if I should swich to all F1 hybrids next year to chase this vigour they speak of. Any thoughts on this ? Cheers

July 9, 2016	#3
NarnianGarden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Finland, EU Posts: 2,550	I think some varieties really exhibit the famous 'hybrid vigor', no smoke without a fire ... Having grown only cherry hybrids, no largerr-fruited ones, I have definitely seen very long trusses and prolific growth. For me, that is a great trait, if combined with good flavor. I have also seen very prolific OP cherries, especially Gardener's delight... This year, my hybrid cherry is Pink Baby Plum. My mom has the main plant and it has long fruit trusses, I only have little side branches that I rooted and planted. That way, I can save space and still get to taste a truss or two.

July 11, 2016	#5
gardeninglee Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2016 Location: West Los Angeles Posts: 203	Wow a picture really is worth a thousand words!

July 11, 2016	#6
zipcode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Romania/Germany , z 4-6 Posts: 1,582	The stuff about hybrid vigor, is a question that could probably be answered by the amateur breeders around here. I have made only one cross which I have taken to f9+, and I'd say the overall vigor of the plant went down a bit from f1-f3 to the final thing. The selection was based on taste mostly and late blight resistance (the great taste was there since f1). So I'd say there is some truth to it in my limited experience. But I think the major advantage of the commercial F1s is not in this vigor but in the 'rare', 'newer' traits introduced by breeding with some wild tomatoes that I guess they have scouts for. Stabilizing some of those productive F1 cherries will still give you something vastly more productive than most old OP cherries.

July 11, 2016	#7
brownrexx Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Southeastern PA Posts: 1,420	I like to grow both hybrids and heirlooms so that I have the best of both worlds. Hybrid varieties are bred for certain characteristics, one of which may be increased production but a lot of times it is resistance to certain diseases. Heirlooms usually lack this disease resistance and that is why I grow some hybrids in addition to the heirlooms. My Big Beef hybrid is my most reliable producer with heavy yields and I always grow it so that I am assured of having enough tomatoes for all of my sauce and canning needs. I don't know that you can say that it produces more tomatoes just because it is a hybrid though.

July 11, 2016	#8
ilex Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Spain Posts: 416	The main reason for having hybrid tomatoes is more money for seed companies. I'm not a tomato breeder, but my impression is that there's probably some hybrid vigor at least in some cases. In other cases it's not obvious and I doubt it's even there. It's far from corn for example. That's based on casual observation of natural crosses and whatever I read about it or played selecting something.

July 11, 2016	#9
FredB Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: Carmel, IN Posts: 76	Unlike corn, tomatoes are mostly self-pollinators, so it is unlikely they would show much hybrid vigor. I can think of two main reasons for F1 hybrids: 1. It gets logistically very difficult to combine a large number of genetic traits such as disease resistance, crack resistance, productivity, color, flavor, etc. into a single OP variety. For instance, if you are aiming to combine 12 traits into a new variety, it's much easier to combine 6 traits in one parent and another 6 traits in the other parent and then make an F1 hybrid than to create an OP variety with all 12 traits. 2. If you are a breeder, you want to get paid for the new variety you put so much time and effort into creating. With an OP variety, anyone can grow seed and sell it without paying the breeder. The breeder can get a PVP (sort of like a patent) on their variety, but PVPs are expensive and cumbersome to get and hard to enforce. On the other hand, an F1 hybrid won't breed true, so seed can only be created by the breeder or someone to whom the breeder supplies the parent lines. Fred

July 11, 2016	#10
M.SeanF. Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Sonoma County CA Posts: 98	In my opinion, Sungold is the perfect example of both hybrid vigor and combination of traits that are hard to fix in an OP version. Around here it's the ONLY hybrid grown by the anti-GMO types.

July 11, 2016	#11
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	Another way of looking at this question without the VS part: There are so many OPs that are not hybrids or heirlooms. At one time, all tomatoes started as F1s that eventually become OP - even without human help. Wild tomatoes produce hundreds of tomatoes. The way I see tomatoes, you find ones you like - and you grow those. Try some others along the way - you might find some hybrids, OPs, wild, and Heirlooms you like more. How well any of them grow and produce is up the grower and growing conditions.

July 12, 2016	#12
Gerardo Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: San Diego-Tijuana Posts: 2,598	Those pictures can be deceptive and are usually part of a marketing scheme. I like them all, hybrids and OPs. Go 50/50 next year, that way you can decide which ones work best for your garden. Mt. Magic and Sungold are two hybrid tomato machines. Some hybrids can get pricey, and yes, they do have lots of mojo.

July 12, 2016	#15
Ricky Shaw Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Zone 6a Denver North Metro Posts: 1,910	Right now, hands down it's hybrids on production in the garden. The Brandy Boys and Big Beef were planted a week later, and the majority of the heirlooms have less than half their set fruit. At this point only Crnkovic Yugoslavian, Elgin Pink, and Cosmonaut Volkov are close. All this could change of course.