Need help with a piriform ID

[dheideman]

So I bought a tomato in a farmer's market in Ouchy, Switzerland a few years back, saved seeds, and finally was able to grow them out this year. Problem is, I don't know what this tomato really is.

It was labeled "Coeur de Boeuf", which it is not. CdB is a true oxheart type tomato. Apparently it is quite common in parts of Europe for this piriform tomato to come in labeled "Coeur de Boeuf". It may be Cuore di Bue, a Liguria type, or "Coeur d’Albenga" which is also known as "Coeur de Boeuf d’Albenga"

It's very heavy, very meaty, almost no seeds (30-40/fruit) with almost no gel. Delicious classic tomato flavor.

Any thoughts?

photo 1: parent fruit (F0)
photos 2+: this year's fruits (F1)

[NarnianGarden]

Whatever it is, it's beautiful. Congrats!

[dheideman]

I'm really pleased with this tomato! Thankfully I have a super long growing season in California, so I'm going to see if I can get some F2 seed by this fall.

[ginger2778]

Were there two parents? I am curious as to why the F generations, as your post doesn't mention a cross.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by dheideman

I'm really pleased with this tomato! Thankfully I have a super long growing season in California, so I'm going to see if I can get some F2 seed by this fall.

You said you got it at a farmer's market in Switzerland, so I'm assuming it's not a hybrid, so I'm not sure why you say you will be saving F2 seeds.

Although I do know that especially in Italy that R1 piriforms are sold.I also know that Johnny's Seeds here in the US was selling an F1 piriform but I don't know if they still are.

Here's another problem in IDing it

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/C..._Boeuf_Blanche

You'll see no entry for the red piriform at all,and that's b'c the spellings go back and forth between cueor to cuore and other spelings.

There's a great link here at Tville,I'm not sure I could find it again,about the various Ligurias,Albengas,and on and on,some from Italy,some from France and I think some from Belgium and possibly some from Spain.

So I don't think I could even suggest which piriform you might have, maybe someone else could,so best to enjoy what you have.

Carolyn,edited to add that I didn't see all the posts before mine since both Freda and Martha were here and I was talking with them.

[dheideman]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

You said you got it at a farmer's market in Switzerland, so I'm assuming it's not a hybrid, so I'm not sure why you say you will be saving F2 seeds.

Although I do know that especially in Italy that R1 piriforms are sold.I also know that Johnny's Seeds here in the US was selling an F1 piriform but I don't know if they still are.

Here's another problem in IDing it

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/C..._Boeuf_Blanche

You'll see no entry for the red piriform at all,and that's b'c the spellings go back and forth between cueor to cuore and other spelings.

There's a great link here at Tville,I'm not sure I could find it again,about the various Ligurias,Albengas,and on and on,some from Italy,some from France and I think some from Belgium and possibly some from Spain.

So I don't think I could even suggest which piriform you might have, maybe someone else could,so best to enjoy what you have.

Carolyn,edited to add that I didn't see all the posts before mine since both Freda and Martha were here and I was talking with them.

I think I was misusing F-terminology (it's different in the reptile world, where my background is.) What's the proper way to indicate "generation 1, generation 2" etc?

I bought the fruit from a seller who had several types of varieties. (I actually brought 3 home, only this one was successful. I'm still annoyed at that, one of them is what hit the commercial market to mass success a couple years ago as the "kumato".)

HOWEVER, I don't know if the sellers themselves grew the tomatoes, or if they were commercial "buy a case and re-sell it" fruits. There was too much of a language barrier. I kind of suspect the latter, though. The photo of the parent fruit is so uniformly pink and lacking green shoulders that I wonder if it was picked green and chemically ripened.

What's the best thing to do with a tomato you really can't ID with any certainty? Is it OK to select and grow out for a couple seasons, then release seed under your own strain name?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by dheideman

I think I was misusing F-terminology (it's different in the reptile world, where my background is.) What's the proper way to indicate "generation 1, generation 2" etc?

I bought the fruit from a seller who had several types of varieties. (I actually brought 3 home, only this one was successful. I'm still annoyed at that, one of them is what hit the commercial market to mass success a couple years ago as the "kumato".)

HOWEVER, I don't know if the sellers themselves grew the tomatoes, or if they were commercial "buy a case and re-sell it" fruits. There was too much of a language barrier. I kind of suspect the latter, though. The photo of the parent fruit is so uniformly pink and lacking green shoulders that I wonder if it was picked green and chemically ripened.

What's the best thing to do with a tomato you really can't ID with any certainty? Is it OK to select and grow out for a couple seasons, then release seed under your own strain name?

First, how on earth did you get through customs with actual tomato fruits,as you implied above,or did you bring back seeds,kinda hidden somewhere?

If a variety is OP( open pollinated,not hybrid), and you save seeds, and no mutations or cross pollinations occur,then you just call them saved seeds,no generations involved.

But if its a variety that is an F1 hybrid and you save seeds from it,most of the time what you'll get are F2 seeds and when you germinate them you usally get different plants with different fruits,depending on what the original parents were.

So it can be a commerial F1 variety or an accidental cross that led to an F1 hybrid.

If you don't know what you have,which seems true here,I'd suggest just growing it for yourself without naming it since there's a good chance it already has a name.

These circumstances have happened quite a few times and right now I'm trying to remember the variety that was renamed whatever b'c it was the winner at a county Fair and then a relative remembered what the true original name was..

Carolyn

[dheideman]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

First, how on earth did you get through customs with actual tomato fruits,as you implied above,or did you bring back seeds,kinda hidden somewhere?

If a variety is OP( open pollinated,not hybrid), and you save seeds, and no mutations or cross pollinations occur,then you just call them saved seeds,no generations involved.

But if its a variety that is an F1 hybrid and you save seeds from it,most of the time what you'll get are F2 seeds and when you germinate them you usally get different plants with different fruits,depending on what the original parents were.

So it can be a commerial F1 variety or an accidental cross that led to an F1 hybrid.

If you don't know what you have,which seems true here,I'd suggest just growing it for yourself without naming it since there's a good chance it already has a name.

These circumstances have happened quite a few times and right now I'm trying to remember the variety that was renamed whatever b'c it was the winner at a county Fair and then a relative remembered what the true original name was..

Carolyn

Oh, no, I collected the seeds and, well, you know ;p

Thankfully my growing season in California is long enough that I think I'll be able to get a second generation this season and start to get to the bottom of what is or isn't involved with this strain. (I have bagged all the fruits I've saved seed from this season, so no chance of cross pollination on my end.)

[Gardeneer]

They look similar to Roma / San Marzano types to me/

[rhoder551]

One of the Canestrino types? I grow Canestrino di Lucca and your tomato looks very similar. I got the original plant from a friend who's father brought him the seeds from Italy.

[rhoder551]

Here are some I picked recently:
This is a very good tomato....

IMG_20160802_051811921.jpg

[Gardeneer]

What's the best thing to do with a tomato you really can't ID with any certainty? Is it OK to select and grow out for a couple seasons, then release seed under your own strain name?

Yes, if you start with F2 seeds and segregate it for a number of years until you get something that is stable, then that would be your baby. Give it a name ..

PS: the ones in your last picture seems to be Cuore di Bue

Here is a picture of Cuore di Bue from my google search.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Yes, if you start with F2 seeds and segregate it for a number of years until you get something that is stable, then that would be your baby. Give it a name ..

PS: the ones in your last picture seems to be Cuore di Bue

Here is a picture of Cuore di Bue from my google search.

Fact is that I and others could name MANY piriform varieties that look exactly like the one you pictured, and this was discussed earlier in this thread.

Carolyn

[gorbelly]

Cuor(e) di bue can be a variety that is an actual heart, or it can be a piriform tomato. Whether it's cuore or cuor depends on the region of Italy and whether or not they tend to drop final vowels there. I think these things tend to be vague because food is very regional there, so in Albenga, people probably used to just call the local piriform tomato "cuor di bue", and it was only outsiders who would specify that it was from Albenga. And so forth.

Other very similar tomatoes are called "pera" (pear) or "canestrino" (a small basket), often with a place name after it (pera d'Abbruzzo, canestrino di Lucca).

"Coeur de boeuf" is French. The same problem exists in that some coeurs de boeuf are oxhearts and some are piriform. Many are Italian piriform varieties that the French adopted, so coeur de boeuf d'Albenga is just the French translation for cuor di bue di Albenga. There's a lot of culinary exchange between parts of France and parts of Italy. And Switzerland has influence from both countries.

A tomato bought at market in Europe is probably just as likely to be a hybrid as one bought at a market here.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by gorbelly

Cuor(e) di bue can be a variety that is an actual heart, or it can be a piriform tomato. Whether it's cuore or cuor depends on the region of Italy and whether or not they tend to drop final vowels there. I think these things tend to be vague because food is very regional there, so in Albenga, people probably used to just call the local piriform tomato "cuor di bue", and it was only outsiders who would specify that it was from Albenga. And so forth.

Other very similar tomatoes are called "pera" (pear) or "canestrino" (a small basket), often with a place name after it (pera d'Abbruzzo, canestrino di Lucca).

"Coeur de boeuf" is French. The same problem exists in that some coeurs de boeuf are oxhearts and some are piriform. Many are Italian piriform varieties that the French adopted, so coeur de boeuf d'Albenga is just the French translation for cuor di bue di Albenga. There's a lot of culinary exchange between parts of France and parts of Italy. And Switzerland has influence from both countries.

A tomato bought at market in Europe is probably just as likely to be a hybrid as one bought at a market here.

Yes, you've just noted again the many reasons I gave in this thread for different areas and spellings,but what I forgot to say is that seeds travel as well, which you mentioned, when folks move to a different country, and then the name is changed again.

An excellent example of that was when a red Huevos de Toro, the same name was used for different colored ones as well, from Spain got to France and was renamed Couilles de Taureau,actually one of my most favorite tomato varieties.

Carolyn