more control of seed fermentation

[bower]

I've been looking for ways to make my seed saving a less moldy and smelly affair with more consistent results. Frogsleap mentioned a ziploc method he uses, and I tried it last year but wasn't completely satisfied with the gel removal and unclear whether lactobacillus had managed to colonize it.
So I decided to experiment with the ziploc approach, but using whey from yoghurt to inoculate the ferment with a lactobacilllus culture - lactobacillus bulgaricus is the one in yoghurt, and that's what I had so that's what I tried.

These zips were mostly seeds from a single small fruit each... I added a rough teaspoon of whey, tried to squeeze the air out, and put them in a safe place where direct sunlight doesn't fall.

[bower]

After 72 + hours I processed the seeds.
There was no nasty odour.
There were only one or two mold spots to be seen, not on the seeds but in air bubbles trapped near the top of the bag.
Instead of a mold mat/ lactobacillus mat on top of the liquid, the lacto had formed a sort of matrix all around the seeds. I poured water into the bag in order to pour them out.
It took a bit of mashing with the plastic fork to get the seeds free of the mat to be decanted, and in a couple of cases I did better just pouring it into the colander and stirring under a stream of water.
Ultimately, I'm satisfied with the results but still have a few questions and concerns, someone or many of you might steer me in the right direction. Questions coming!

[bower]

Further questions and concerns: all comments welcome!

(1) Some of the seeds looked a bit "sprouty", I mean a little white bit at the end where the sprout would come out. I wondered if I made it too "wet" by adding a whole teaspoon of whey.
Options for further experimentation:
(a) I could try using less whey
(b) I could use a piece of the lacto "colony" from the first batch.
I did isolate a few pieces that are not full of tomato gunk just a white rubbery bit with no odour.

(2) Meanwhile I 'm thinking, am I fooling myself that this is Lactobacillus bulgaricus from the yoghurt? Wouldn't it need a warmer temperature than the wild Lacto that colonizes an open pudding cup of seeds and gel? If it's not the wild local culture and is from the yoghurt, does that mean it will stop working well when temperatures get cooler?
Is there a better way/whey to get the primo lacto culture for a room temperature ferment? I know picklers use salt to get lactobacillus culture... but I don't want any salt into my seeds.
Carolyn, you know I'm hoping to hear all your thoughts about this, especially.
TIA, everyone.

[ContainerTed]

I've used this way for years now. The only time you get the "odor" is when you start to rinse them. I've actually got two more dozen half-pint jars with seeds fermenting in them. Keeping them indoors allows me to better control the process. I tried to keep them outdoors, but the temperature there is always varying up and down. Here, inside with the jars capped with rings and lids, I can control it all very well.

At the end of each season, I re-sterilize the jars and get new lids and rings. Then, they are ready to hold jams and such at our discretion.

[Worth1]

Bower fermenters dont use salt to get the culture the culture is on the food product itself or they have to buy it because they were too clean.
The salt is to help slow down the fermenting process to preserve while it is going on and to keep an environment not friendly to bad bacteria.

I think your seeds tried to sprout.
Worth

[bower]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Bower fermenters dont use salt to get the culture the culture is on the food product itself or they have to buy it because they were too clean.
The salt is to help slow down the fermenting process to preserve while it is going on and to keep an environment not friendly to bad bacteria.

I think your seeds tried to sprout.
Worth

Worth, can you buy culture for making fermented pickles and saurkraut such? What do they call it, and where would I find it?
I always thought it just came from the local air, and salt killed everything except the lactobacillus which we know is friendly. As you can tell, I've never fermented a pickle in my life.
I agree I think the seeds wanted to sprout.

[Worth1]

I have also never fermented a seed in my life.

Worth

[bower]

Hi Ted,
Yes I saw your method and it looks great, but a bit bulky for saving small lots of seeds. Also it seems we have so many mold spores here in the woods when it gets hot and humid.. Just the amount of air in the jar would be enough I think, to make an unpleasant mess.

My well water is so cold, in warm weather the pipes and filter machine get condensation all over them and literally pools of water on the basement floor. I've been wiping mold off the bottom edge of a dresser down there and I think I have to ditch the thing... no saving it. And endless mopping up.
So I really want a way to reduce the mold in my life.

[Labradors2]

Fermentation (not mold) is a lovely thing {LOL}. As a long-time fermenter of kefir, I can say that it still ferments in the cold. For example my kefir takes 24 hours to ferment in a jar on the kitchen counter, and roughly a week to ferment a jar in the fridge.

I don't process a ton of seeds, so instead of using mason jars, I use little shot glasses or small wine glasses. To keep the smell down (as I let them sit on my kitchen windowsills) I put a layer of cling-wrap over the top and it works well.

It's been really hot here, and the first seeds that I fermented had a mat over the top in just 4 days. I rinsed them, and then discovered that they could have used another fermentation day, as some gel was still clinging to the seeds. They looked like yours and I wonder if you could have left it for another day. Since these early tomatoes were in perfect health, I went ahead and processed them, but next time I'll give them 5 days.

I guess I could try your experiment with some kefir whey and see if it speeds things up!

Linda

[Worth1]

Bower if you google fermentation starter you will see all kinds of stuff pop up.

Some people are just too clean and they have to have this stuff to get it going what can I say.
All I do is rinse lightly and that is it.
I tried the other way and ended up with what smelled like lacquer thinner or acetone and the pickles dissolved in a week.

Here is bu one of many links.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...9wNwfMUlc7pIvg
I use salt as a throttle for fermentation due to temperature swings from winter to summer.
Less in winter more in the summer.

I know this is about seeds but you asked 'So no even if it didn't kill the seeds you wouldn't want to use salt this would only preserve the jell coat on the seeds not destroy it.
Also by way of osmosis it would replace the moisture in the seeds with salt water.

Worth

[bower]

Worth, thanks, that's a good link with clear explanations - and they talk about kefir too.
Linda, great suggestion, I'll look around and see what kefir I can find to try.
I know from past experience making yoghurt, you will not get a good one without the right amount of heat. Room temperature you likely get nothing.

I think for today I will try using the bits of mat from the first ones as a starter.
Whether it came from "on the fruit itself" or the whey or both, it's better than nothing, at least, better than nothing when the un-inoculated ferments haven't been all that successful lately.

[carolyn137]

Carolyn, you know I'm hoping to hear all your thoughts about this, especially

*****

Sorry but no helpful thoughts from me since I would not use Lactobacilli from Yogurt or anything similar to ferment seeds.

The two so called active cultures in Yogurt are L.bulgaricus and Streptococus thermophilus,and that's no for me either,since now way am I'm going fool around with fat globules and all that stuff. And yes,I also know that one doesn't have to source their Lactobacilli and Streps from yogurt any way.

This might help

https://www.google.com/#q=live+bacteria+in+yogurt&hl=en

I want ONLY a fermentation with a heavy mat of bacteria and molds that have fallen into the plastic pint containers I used to use,so that I get a MIXED fermentation that is then great at removing gel capsules,etc.

Bower,you should never ask a woman in her dotage who has done this or that re seed extraction,since she's done it,except for TSP and acid,and that's the way it's been and would be if she could still do her own seed extractions

Carolyn

[Worth1]

Your welcome, I have never seen that site in my life before today.
Some how I am doing the same thing as they are doing but dreamed much of it up.
Right now I am experimenting with a pile of limes in a very heavy brine solution.
I bet the darn things will last forever.
I have tried one and it is to die for.

A friend of mine from Lebanon showed me how to make real yogurt and yogurt cheese when I was about 24 or 25.

[Worth1]

Carolyn I have never understood why they called the process seed fermentation anyway.
It seems more like a rot to me because there is no control over what inters the brew so to speak.

Has anyone considered or thought of putting a pinch of sugar in the mix?

Worth

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Carolyn I have never understood why they called the process seed fermentation anyway.
It seems more like a rot to me because there is no control over what inters the brew so to speak.

Has anyone considered or thought of putting a pinch of sugar in the mix?

Worth

Precisely,you never do know what will fall in,and say I,so what,since the bacteria and fungi that fall in all make enzymes that are important in the fermentation.

Add sugar?

No need to since when you broke open the tomatoes to create the glop know that it's many polysaccharides both internally and in the cell walls that get enzymatically broken down to individual sugars,so there you go,or not.

Carolyn,now going for short siesta.