Need help from the Pros here...

[bigcheef]

Gimme and I have been discussin a particular variety that appears to Spontaneously throw both RL and PL seedlings.

The original Polish C seed was acquired from Sand Hill and is described as having PL foliage. I had forgotten this when I planted the seed last year and thought nothing of having all RL seedlings (approximately 10).

After saving seed from the RL plant, which happened to be one of the largest and most productive plants from last year, shared seed has turned out 5 PL seedlings out of 8 for Gimme. Mine are still 2-3 weeks from true leaves so I decided to call Sand Hill.

After speaking to Linda and Glen, I understand that Carolyn’s book mentions that this RL / PL tendency is common with Polish C. (as she experienced in her garden)

I know the story on so called “Polish” varieties is similar- “Large pink beefsteaks, PL foliage:”

So what do y’all think?

No need to be a “Pro” to respond…..8)

BTW, I plan to sew several seeds from the original pack as a control.

RIK

[nctomatoman]

My take on this - I just don't buy that certain varieties have a tendency to flip PL/RL and vice versa. My view is that it is just that there is segregation going on, perhaps from some crossing a few generations back. I have a variety called Taps that had a reputation for going back and forth - I worked on it, grew PL seedlings and RL seedlings and saved seed separately from each, and within a few seasons got it worked out that the leaf shape comes true each season.

My other data point is that after growing out thousands of seedlings of various varieties over the past 10 years, unless crossing occurs, varieties come pretty much 100% to their expected leaf shape. If you do see something unexpected, it is typically a cross or stray seed.

So, a good test - grow out a plant of each, save seeds separately, and see if after a few seasons you don't get it consistent with respec to leaf shape.

Just my two cents!

[Grub]

I'm hearing Craig's view a lot more from other pros, so that's the line I'm taking, too. As in, cross.

[bigcheef]

Sounds good to me guys. I don't bag blossoms, so I'm sure it could have been crossed in my garden last year.

I just thought it was strange to have all RL the first year when the description was PL to begin with. Either way, it will be interesting to see what we have this year compared to seeds from the original packet.

This was a great variety and I've shared seed with several T-villians so keep me posted of your results and hopefully we'll figure it out.

RIK

[carolyn137]

I have a different view here and want to introduce the concept of jumping genes.

I grew Polish C for years and it was always PL from saved seeds. Then one year I got two RL plants instead of PL's. I saved seed. B/c folks nagged me I offered that RL Polish C seed at one of my seed offers at GW, so that seed is out there. And all that's different with that is the leaf form; all else being the same.

Glenn at Sandhill requested seed for all of the varieties in my book that he didn't already have when the book was published, and the Polish C sent to him was PL.

As for Taps, I hear what Craig says, and I don't think I'm any less of a so called "pro" than anyone else, and I could not get it to be stable.

Save seeds from PL's, regrow and get both. Save seeds from RL plants, save seeds and get both. For several years in a row. So I gave up and just left it there. Had it been a variety that I was distributing, which I wasn't with Taps, I would NOT have distributed the wrong leaf form.

So Craig and I got different results re Taps, and I'm saying we got different results and that time was NOT a factor for me.

An additional problem is the instability of Dr. Carolyn Pink, which most of you know about. And I've been dealing with this for about nine years now, and still cannot stabilize the fruit size/taste of Dr. Carolyn Pink.

The variety Dr. Carolyn was throwing red fruited plants for many years and again, saved seed from ivory gave both and saved seed from red gave both.

So I don't think it's as easy as saying that time solves all genetic instability problems, I really don't, and actually I have a new outlook on this.

And that came out of a relatively recent thread, I think it was at GW, where folks were talking about spontaneous mutations, as I was as well, and I was saying, as I often do, that they are permanent heritable mutations.

But Keith came back and said that not all such mutations were permanent and heritable and gave a reference and cut and pasted some info.

it turns out, which I didn't know, that tomatoes have what are called jumping genes, which I knew from other systems, but didn't know they had been described for tomatoes.

So in the case of Polish C , Taps and Dr. Carolyn pink it's very possible that jumping genes are at work.

There is no specific time that a jumping gene stays in one place where it has knocked out function of a specific trait, or indeed released from suppression and allowed the expression of a different trait.

So the tomato genome, as with other genomes, can be seen as kind of a moving target, if you will, as regards DNA expression as moderated by jumping genes.

[sirtanon]

Wow, Carolyn.. I've never heard of that before. Pretty wild stuff. I'll have to try growing out one of those varieties and see what I get.

.......................

That aside though, my first reaction to the question posed was that it was a cross.. that 2 out of 10 ratio looks conspicuously close to the 1:4 ratio seen with PL/RL dehybridization. And, considering the plant was very vigorous, it's possible it had the much talked-about "hybrid vigor"