When is a hybrid no longer a hybrid ?

[Groundhog]

I try not to ask questions unless I've exhausted all other means of finding the answer but I can't find the answer to this question.

As near as I can tell, if you save seeds from a hybrid and replant them, the results may not be true. Since there's so many varieties of tomatoes out there I'll use Early Girl as an example. I know Early Girls have been around a long time and you can buy seeds in just about any place that sells seeds every year. Where do the seed companies get their seeds ?

If the variety is stabilized why is it still labeled as a hybrid ?

[Fred Hempel]

The parents of a hybrid are stabilized (true breeding)

2 parents are used to produce a hybrid, and all hybrids are identical, because the have the exact same parents.

The hybrid can not be kept as a hybrid. It is the parents that are kept, year after year, and each year they are used to produce hybrids.

If you save seed from a hybrid, your seeds will have the traits of the parents mixed up, and the plants will not be identical. Saving for more generations can lead to a new true-breeding line, but it will not be the same as the original hybrid.

The parents represent a "trade secret" and only those with knowledge of the parents, and with the parents in hand, can produce hybrid seed.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I try not to ask questions unless I've exhausted all other means of finding the answer but I can't find the answer to this question.

As near as I can tell, if you save seeds from a hybrid and replant them, the results may not be true. Since there's so many varieties of tomatoes out there I'll use Early Girl as an example. I know Early Girls have been around a long time and you can buy seeds in just about any place that sells seeds every year. Where do the seed companies get their seeds ?

If the variety is stabilized why is it still labeled as a hybrid ?

http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes.html

Start with this page above and continue onward and you'll find out. This is from an online place owned by Keith Mueller, one of the smartest persons I know of when it comes to almost anything tomato.

You'll find out, spoiler alert,that it takes about 14 generations to dehybridize an F1 hybrid, but that depends completely on which varieties were used, stabilized,and checked out to see if the traits being bred in actually were bred in.Those genes could be certain genes for disease tolerances,high solids, and so much more..

After reading at the site I think you'll see that a variety being GENETICALLY stabilized has little to do with with it being or not being a hybrid since stabilization occurs many time in creating a new F1 hybrid..

Where do seed companies get their seeds from?

Google Tomato Growers Supply,they are in Florida and you'll see both OP(open pollinated) varieties being offered and also F1 hybrids.

Here, Ididitforyou

https://www.google.com/search?q=toma...&bih=815&dpr=1

I think that's an updated site, but didn't check it to be sure but it doesn't really matter for I'm just trying to make a point.



F1 hybrids come from the companies that bred them, which often takes a lot of work, which is why F1 Seed is more expensive than OP seed. But again, it depends on specific hybrids as to seed prices since some commercial seed vendors sell seeds more cheaply,if you will, than others.

If you have any questions, please let us know.

Here is the direct link to Keith's site

http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/

And I highly suggest that when you have the time that you read ALL the info at his site.

I hope the above has helped.

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

Fred,it looks like I was perhaps giving too much info while you were giving close to the same info I was with less words.

However,I still think highly of Keith's site and there's so much other info and links there that I didn't even mention.

Carolyn

[Fred Hempel]

Keith's site is great, especially if you want an in-depth view!!

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Fred,it looks like I was perhaps giving too much info while you were giving close to the same info I was with less words.

However,I still think highly of Keith's site and there's so much other info and links there that I didn't even mention.

Carolyn

[SueCT]

So if Early Girl were a product of Stump of the World and Brandywine, everyone who combined a SOFW and a BW would get EG? Or only the original two plants that produced the hybrid? Is there any genetic variability between different plants in the same variety? I mean, you get the same two parents producing offspring in people every year and you don't get the same result, lol. Just ask my mother. Clearly not the same thing, but you get my point. How do you know the same traits will transfer from each parent each year? This interesting.

[Groundhog]

Thanks for the link Carolyn, you just sent my brain into overload

[Gardeneer]

A plalnt is hybrid if it is created, intentionally with 2 or more parents.
Technically, if a hybrid os stalilized by segregation and selection, it is still a hybrid product.
Case in point:
Burpee calls Brandy Boy a "stable hybrid" and sells the seeds as "hybrid". They are technically right. It is a variety created by hybridizing and sebsequently stabilized.

[Fred Hempel]

Hybrids, by definition, have ONLY 2 parents. 2 true-breeding parents.

If a hybrid has been stabilized by continued selection, it is the product of an original hybrid cross, but calling it a hybrid product is misleading. ALL true breeding lines (heirlooms included) are the products of hybrid crosses if you go back far enough into their lineage. Thus the term "hybrid product" isn't that useful.

My reading of Burpee's site (I just looked) indicates that Brandy Boy is an F1 hybrid. Not a variety created by selection and stabilization. I don't see where they use the term stabilized hybrid. Are you looking at a different page?

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

A plalnt is hybrid if it is created, intentionally with 2 or more parents.
Technically, if a hybrid os stalilized by segregation and selection, it is still a hybrid product.
Case in point:
Burpee calls Brandy Boy a "stable hybrid" and sells the seeds as "hybrid". They are technically right. It is a variety created by hybridizing and sebsequently stabilized.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by Fred Hempel

Hybrids, by definition, have ONLY 2 parents. 2 true-breeding parents.

If a hybrid has been stabilized by continued selection, it is the product of an original hybrid cross, but calling it a hybrid product is misleading. ALL true breeding lines (heirlooms included) are the products of hybrid crosses if you go back far enough into their lineage. Thus the term "hybrid product" isn't that useful.

My reading of Burpee's site (I just looked) indicates that Brandy Boy is an F1 hybrid. Not a variety created by selection and stabilization. I don't see where they use the term stabilized hybrid. Are you looking at a different page?

Somebody from here at TV called them up and that is what they said " Brandy Boy is a stabilized hybrid" (paraphrased).

[nbardo]

Originally Posted by SueCT

So if Early Girl were a product of Stump of the World and Brandywine, everyone who combined a SOFW and a BW would get EG? Or only the original two plants that produced the hybrid? Is there any genetic variability between different plants in the same variety? I mean, you get the same two parents producing offspring in people every year and you don't get the same result, lol. Just ask my mother. Clearly not the same thing, but you get my point. How do you know the same traits will transfer from each parent each year? This interesting.

Someone please correct me if this is wrong, but since the parents are genetically stable the genes they contribute at pollination are always going to be the exactly same or very nearly so. Thats what keeps them true breeding when they self pollinate.

If you took two unstable plants and crossed them, the resulting generation would have wide variation.


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[NarnianGarden]

I have also wondered of the parenthood stability, and if the companies can guarantee same results repeatedly.. probably yes, since they keep on selling SunGolds and other popular hybrids all over the globe
What happens, though, if the parents are 'switched', aka. plant A has been used as a father (pollen source), but instead, is used as a pollen recipient (mother)? Is the end product similar, very different, recognizable but with a twist etc..?

[Fred Hempel]

Any legitimate company selling bona fide hybrids uses true-breeding (genetically uniform) parents.

They can absolutely guarantee predictable results (with the exception of a small number of "mistakes" that are inevitable -- pollen is small and not all female plant emasculations are perfect).

In practice, when making a hybrid, one decides which parent is the better female parent and then consistently uses that variety as the female. Particularly when large amounts of hybrid seed are being produced.

If the parents are switched, the hybrid may not be exactly the same. Because there are some non-mendelian inheritance mechanisms. But, the usual case is that switching the parents does not produce detectable differences.

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

I have also wondered of the parenthood stability, and if the companies can guarantee same results repeatedly.. probably yes, since they keep on selling SunGolds and other popular hybrids all over the globe
What happens, though, if the parents are 'switched', aka. plant A has been used as a father (pollen source), but instead, is used as a pollen recipient (mother)? Is the end product similar, very different, recognizable but with a twist etc..?