How do tomatoes grow?

[lumierefrere]

Sorry I can't come up with a better way to express my question.

I always started seeds a couple weeks too early so everything went outside tallish and leggy. All my plants got so tall, the Grandfather Ashlock was 7' last year and I have a short season, it's better to put energy on fruit instead of all this growing.

This year, heeding Carolyn, I started everything in the middle of April so everything was quite small when I planted out at the end of May. All the plants now are very compact, much less height than ever before. Dense one might say.

Does a plant have to compensate for perhaps inordinate height? Does it have to catch up to its height and then begin to concentrate on fruit? What, if any, is the overall impact of imperfect timing of starting seeds (or perhaps lack of sufficient light in some cases)?

[feldon30]

I think maybe you may be misinterpreting WHY Carolyn says that bigger plants are not necessarily beneficial in the Northeast U.S. Also I don't think she has ever said they are undesirable, only not necessary.

If you have a gradual ramp up of evening temperatures of high 40's, then low 50's, I think tomato plants can enter a kind of dormancy where they grow roots but not really size up above the ground. Then as things warm up, smaller plants can catch up to larger plants. So there may be little or no benefit to larger plants in Northern climates.

On the other hand in S.E. Texas, temperatures ramp up dramatically and within days of transplanting (Feb 25-March 10th), temperatures can be ideal for tomato growth (high of 70, low of 50, bright and sunny) and the plants will "hit the ground running." In this case, smaller plants can cost you in production.

I think the question that needs to be asked to answer your question is, which tomato plants are better equipped to set a lot of fruit and really deliver? Smaller plants or larger plants. My answer at least in my garden is larger plants. My plants at transplant are 12-18" in gallon pots and are 8 feet tall by the end of the season.

[lumierefrere]

So what you're saying is that it's a draw?

[feldon30]

I'm saying that I don't see how large transplants would prevent a large crop for you.

[carolyn137]

This year, heeding Carolyn, I started everything in the middle of April so everything was quite small when I planted out at the end of May. All the plants now are very compact, much less height than ever before. Dense one might say.

*****

Barb, I don't recall ever saying to sow seeds in mid-April since I always used to do it around April 1st. Maybe sowing the cherry tomatoes a week after that since they grow so fast.

That would leave me with nice transplant size plants of about 7-12 inches near the end of May and that last week in May would be hardening off time.

[lumierefrere]

My mistake. I thought you said 6-8 weeks before target plant out date. I gave it 6 weeks. 8 + weeks had given me unwieldy plants.

Am I expressing this completely wrong? I am not even asking about production, I was questioning how the plants fill out.

I'm sorry for all my confusion.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by lumierefrere

My mistake. I thought you said 6-8 weeks before target plant out date. I gave it 6 weeks. 8 + weeks had given me unwieldy plants.

Am I expressing this completely wrong? I am not even asking about production, I was questioning how the plants fill out.

I'm sorry for all my confusion.

I suppose at one time or another I may have said 6-8 weeks b/c that's the time period usually given.

But it all depends on how well seed starting goes, and how the plants are grown on, as in the windowsill, in a greenhouse, under lights, etc., in terms of timing/

So one just has to experiment.

How plants fill out?

I guess I don't really know what you mean for plants of different varieties do have differences as to how they fill out, aside from plant habit, as in det, indet, etc.

[Tomatovator]

Seems to me that the plants grow according to the time of the year (at least here). I planted all my plants outside on the same day. Some were about 18" tall and some were just 10" tall or so. I could see the difference in size for the first 6 weeks or so but now it is hard to tell what plants started outside bigger than the others. They are all about the same size. They sort of evened out. Maybe its because of the amount of sun they all get equally, the length of the days or some other factor. Last year I planted out on May 15th or so. This year I planted out on April 24th and covered the plants with frost protect cloth for the first few weeks. I got my first ripe tomato last year on July 21st. This year I got the first ripe one on July 2nd.

[dice]

As for lower light, there are multiple thresholds:

At some level below 8 hours or more of sunlight
a day, they grow slower, but otherwise don't look
much different than plants that get 8 hours or more
of sunlight.

At a lower level of light than that, they grow slower and
start to stretch for the light, so that you get spindly
stems and sparse-looking plants.

Different cultivars react differently, too. In the shadiest
row I have, Super Marmande did the best in 3 weeks of
cool, cloudy, rainy weather in June. The Super Marmande
even managed to set the first beefsteak in the garden
in that weather. Aurora, Sasha's Altai, and Cougar Red
in that row are a little behind, but they look healthy
and are setting fruit now that the sunny weather has
returned. PSR 37 and Tigerella grew weak and spindly
in that low light, though they've perked up a bit now.
Neither of those in that row has set a fruit yet.

Plants of all of those same cultivars except Tigerella
are also growing in rows that get sun all day, and the
plants of those cultivars in the sunnier rows are
1-2 feet taller without being gangly, have more
developed side branches, many more leaves, and all
have fruit set.

(Sasha's Altai is an exception; it is quite a compact
plant, even in full sunlight, and some bigger
indeterminates nearby are trying to bury it under
side branches. It is still setting fruit down there
in the shadows, though.)

They all went into the ground first of May.

[tjg911]

Barb,
.
I have started seeds from 3/20 to 4/10 over different growing seasons. I have found that 4/7 is ideal but that's because I am now growing them under shop lights and I put them out on memorial day, usually. 1 or 2 years I waited until the following Friday or Saturday but this was based upon either cold weather and or too much rain. Starting prior to 4/7 under shop lights gives plants too tall for the shop light stand and the final pot size, they tend to be really root bound even starting on 4/7, 4/15 might actually be better. Any date using the window gives tall spindly plants.
.
I used to start seeds and grow them in the window, not really a good way vs using shop lights. With shop lights my seeds started on 4/7 produce stocky vigorous plants that often have flowers on them by the end of may. I transplant about 4 times based upon the size of the plant, you can tell when it's time and root development requires more room so I may err on the side of doing it a few days early. My last transplanting is around 5/5 from a 16 oz to a 1/2 gallon container. My plants are 15-20" tall by 5/20 with stalks at the pot/promix level about 1/2" to 5/8" in diameter but that's because they are under shop lights. In the window they'd be 10-30" tall and the stalk would be 1/16" to maybe 1/4".
.
If my grow light stand had taller shelves I could start them say 3/15, go to the 1/2 gallon pot around say 4/15 and into a 1 or 2 gallon pot around 5/5 but that's a lot of promix! I also question if 3/15 started plants that maybe 25-30" tall with 3/4-7/8" stalks would be good under lights. The reason is that by the time the plants are 15-20" there is a LOT of dense foliage. if they were say 25-30" tall, the shop lights would not be delivering adequate light to the lower part of the plant. I think my 4/7 timing gives me plants that tho they are tall by memorial day (they usually are totally hardened off and outside 24 hours per day by 5/23), the amount of foliage re the lights is not an issue. That said, starting on 3/15 may have me in a 2 gallon pot on 5/3 and I could have them hardened off by say 5/10 and there'd be no need to be under the lights. since I'll be retired next spring, I'd be home to take them in if the temps dropped into the 40's and be able to put them out at say 9-10 am when it warms up the next morning. Ah, retirement!
.
but that's my take on size vs growth vs tomato production. Btw, I DEFINITELY get earlier tomatoes now that I use shop lights and have much larger healthier plants than the spindly plants growing in the window when the sun is out just 6 days in may! I now get tomatoes about 3-4 weeks earlier depending upon the variety but they all produce sooner. In your climate, that jump in production may be very helpful. Not sure if you use lights but I am suggesting if you don't to consider it.
.
Tom