Is it technique, the mail, both or neither?

[nctomatoman]

This is an annual observation - and the dwarf project is bringing it out more clearly. Since we are carefully tracking lots of seed and germination results, I am struck by the significant differences observed. Many varieties that I've now started that are giving me 100% germination are either completely or significantly failing when others start those seeds. Once I get all of my data complete, I can post some examples - but it really does call into question what the significant factors are around this. I am sure that subtle differences in seed starting technique can have signifcant differences in success. Seed depth, Seed starting medium, temperature, moisture levels come to mind. But is the trip through the mail an added factor?

Tomaddict and I are pondering a way to look at this that we may involve some others in for next spring in the NH. He came up with the plan, and he and I will refine it.....The reason being he and I see some of these significant differences, and feel that our techniques are very similar.

By the way, I am going to have a thread in the dwarf project area that lists my germination percent by vial number (you can cross reference back to the main assignment list).

curious!

[feldon30]

I just think it is odd how some people report 100% success with jiffy pots, peat pots, jiffy mix, peat pellets, etc. and others have nothing but trouble. Some people have trouble with MG or Scotts, I've had success with both. I tried to mix my own seed starting mix one year with peat and vermiculite and had extremely poor results. Potting up the sad-looking seedlings into real seed starting mix gave them the boost they needed.

I do pre-soak all my seeds which I realize is space and time prohibitive for most people. I also drop the seeds onto the surface of the moist seed starting mix and arrange a few strands of the mix on top of each seed with a pair of needlenose pliers. I have found this to be especially important with Black Cherry seeds. I then do not water (except maybe a handheld spray bottle to mist the top) until the soil starts to dry out, which is at least a week later.

[akgardengirl]

Craig,
Well, I have been curious about one thing with seeds grown in a much hotter environment and then sent through the mail to sit in freezing temps in the mailbox until I get home to check it. Then they sit in the house here a couple of weeks until planting time. Just the house temp of 68 during the day and 65 at night might be a factor when these seeds have been sitting in a much different environment. Humidity or lack of anything like you have down south Craig could also be it. On the other hand, Michael's winter grown Grumpies and my seeds from last season are sprouting like crazy. He is in a drier climate, drier than here for sure, but we do have much lower humidity than in your location. Freshness? I used Oxyclean last year for the 1st time since it is pretty chilly when I get the final tomatoes off the plant in the fall. We just don't have those soaring temps to ferment here. It may be far fetched but I think it is the original growing conditions vs. new growing conditions in which the seeds have to adapt. Probably doesn't make much sense!
Sue

[nctomatoman]

Good thoughts, Sue - this will be helpful when we design our experiment to test out as many of these variables as we can!

[kimpossible]

I had the same thoughts as Sue. When I am expecting seeds in the mail, I get nervous if we're going through really freezing temperatures - the mail is put in the box around 10 am, and sometimes we don't get for 7 or 8 hours (depending on working hours). I don't know at what point seeds might be damaged by exposure to freezing temps - how cold it has to get and for what length of time they would have to be exposed for. And I'm not sure how the postal system works and where & at what temps mail is stored. I had seeds from a private trade that came from Ohio that took 16 days! It makes you wonder what they were exposed to along the way.

[JerryL]

I have to lean away from the mail as being a major contributor to poor germination. Unless a particular shipment goes through some unusual treatment.

Think about the number of commercial seed companies that send seed, not just tomato, through the mail in all kinds of weather to all areas of the country/world and the number of complaints about seed not germinating. I think the percentage of complaints is pretty low.

My unscientific guess is low germination is due more to one or more of the following than the mail:

• Tomato ripeness at time of seed saving (my two cents says it can make a difference – not always but not to be totally disregarded either)
• Saving technique (attention to fermentation time, drying time, etc...)
• Storage conditions (temps, humidity, etc…)
• Sowing technique

The first three are not confined to the home gardener but to commercial endeavors also. I think one of the first three is quite often the cause when we see a thread where multiple people comment that Variety A from Company B didn’t germinate or didn’t do well after germination.

Or maybe the postperson switches seeds on some people!

[annecros]

I'm wondering if exposure to cool temps, low humidity is a factor.

I, routinely, store my seed in a spare refrigerator (yes, I own two refrigerators, I'm a foodie sort) and have found that I get better germination after a two week or so stint in the fridge. I discovered this after resowing - I got the seed (Tony's Italian comes to mind readily) sowed it, got 0 germination. Resowed a month later, after the seeds sat in the fridge, and got 100% under the same conditions and with the same method.

Purely anecdotal, and correlation does not equate to causation. But, as a year around grower I am giving all my seeds some time in the "cooler" and have been much more satisfied with my germination rate. It may all be superstition, though.

[feldon30]

You've probably already answered this, and maybe it should be in another topic, but I am curious what amendments you are using, how much you are raising the soil, whether the existing soil is the typical heavy clay which drains about as well as a brick wall, etc.

[dice]

[mailed seeds]
According to

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archiv...8/seed0998.htm

moisture content when the seeds are stored makes a
difference. Seeds are normally archived at sub-freezing
temperatures, but vastly different moisture content
when they are chilled could correlate to a difference
in subsequent viability.

[elkwc36]

Very interesting thread. Annecros reminds me of a person who would sow his seeds and set the flat outside for one freezing night. Guess he had good germination. I've never tried it but might be something to it. A lot to ponder and experiment with here.

[charlieb]

My experience has been this. I first grew Grumpy 2 years ago-the F1 it was determinant. I had serous germination problems. but I was able to grow 2 out of the 10 seeds I was sent.

Last year, I had excellent germination with the F3's. 5/5

This year, new varieties, Lime Twist and Sorenella's selection, Happy. No germination from vial 2051 and only 3/10 from vial 07-70. Two of the three were borne without cotyldons-just stalks and nubs at the top.

Craig started the same two vials and got near 100% germination.

From this experience one could say that the seeds were damaged in the mail.

Thanks

[Ruth_10]

I have often wondered about the effect on seeds when they sit for many hours in the mailbox when the temps are below freezing. Seems like good seeds could go over to the dark side. Then I remember all the volunteer tomato plants that come up in my garden from the fruits that got left behind. Those seeds got exposed to multiple freeze-thaw cycles and they do just fine.

For variable germination results from the same batch of seed, it seems to me that seed-starting technique is the most likely explanation. Many people, if they think about it, do something different, small or large, on purpose or inadvertently, each time they seed. For someone like Craig, who has started many seeds for many years, the changes are probably so small as to be of no consequence. He probably uses the same equipment, the same starting mix, the same windowsill, starts at the same time of year, etc, year after year after year.

I suppose it's possible tomato seeds are damaged going through the sorter at the post office, but that would be tough to prove since it likely would be a random event at any particular post office. And everyone who receives seeds through the mail should at times have germination failures when others are not. I'm not sure that is the case.

Interesting topic for speculation!

[dice]

Looking at seeds received in the mail this year in
envelopes without padding, I have seen a couple
of crushed seeds (not whole packets, just individual
seeds). If the envelopes go through a roller on a belt
at some post offices, it does not seem to affect the
seeds in packets inside the envelope. It is possible
that some machine grabs onto the envelope to secure
it to apply a postmark or scan it, but apparently it
is quite narrow compared to the envelope or even
to the little coin envelopes and so on that people put
seeds in.

If the mail were involved, I would look more toward
moisture content of the seeds vs temperature in
transit. (I am imagining a seed with a high moisture
content being damaged by ice crystals forming inside
it at sub-freezing temperatures, although that would
certainly not be pure ice, with all of those organic
compounds dissolved in it, and who knows what
temperature it actually becomes solid at.)

What else could be involved in mailing seeds? Radiation
of some kind, or ozone emitted from some kind of equipment?

[Sherry_AK]

One way to test the 'damaged in the mail' theory would be for someone to send seed through the mail, the recipient could return them to the same individual, who could then compare germination between the batch of seed reserved and not mailed against the ones mailed to and fro. This would assure the same germination techniques and conditions for a given sample.

[OmahaJB]

Interesting to read the responses to this question.
Speculation from a 'less' experienced gardener than most of you are:
Mail - In all my trades I've never seen any visible damage to tomato or pepper seeds during the mailing process. Outside of seeds possibly going through those fairly new machines that neutralize substances like Anthrax, it's hard to believe seeds would be harmed in the mail. Unless they were mailed during the hottest months of summer.

Seed storage and seed starting techniques would seem the most likely causes of germination variation from one grower to another. I read an interesting post by Carolyn just days ago that made me realize I was probably doing something very wrong by not propping up the plastic tops occassionally to my two little greenhouses to get air circulation. I've always removed the seedlings from the greenhouses to put them under the lights once they popped through the soil, but didn't realize I needed to prop the plastic lids of the greenhouses up once in awhile. Who knows how many seeds I've suffocated to death! I have suspected for a few months that using my heated Jiffy greenhouse during warmer months, has probably cooked many of my seeds that were started during those times. Which explains why I've only had great success with seed-starting during winter months. For experienced gardeners those probably seem like obvious rules of thumb (propping up the lid once in awhile and not using bottom heat during warmer months), but for people just starting out they are very helpful tips. I expect to have much greater success in the future with seed-starting.

Another thought, and maybe this is totally off-the-wall stuff, but could it be possible that seed of some varieties are 'tougher' than other varieties, making them less likely to be affected by several temp changes during shipping, poor seed storage climate (i.e. too hot), bad seed starting techniques (i.e. mine in warmer months!), and other variants such as fermentation temps? How probable is this theory I wonder?

Jeff