Andrew Rahart's Jumbo ... Pink?

[Tania]

I got huge, 1+ lb fruits finally ripening on my Andrew Rahart's plants - I picked one yesterday, which was not 100% ripe, but it started to spoil a bit, so I cut it and tasted - it was fabulous tasting, rich, meaty. Yum.

The only problem with it was... it had clear skin, which qualifies it as 'pink'. Obviously not a real Andrew Rahart's, which should have yellow skin.

Agrrrr...After a crop failure in 2005, I managed to get this one to grow and ripen this year, and now this.

Everything else looks exactly as advertised, except the skin color. Given the outstanding taste and texture and size, I would like to keep it and I saved seeds.
Now I need to figure out how to label it - Andrew Rahart's Jumbo Pink?

The attached picture does not give justice to the fruit color. The other fruits on the plant are less catfaced than this one.

Tania,
who is now looking for real Andrew Rahart's Jumbo Red. Please contact me if you have a real deal and know the original seed source, I am willing to exchange to any of my tomatoes I actively maintain

[carolyn137]

The absolute original seed source is not known. Andrew Rahart collected many varieties such as Pink Ping Pong and Myona and others when he lived just north of NYC.

He named it Andrew Rahart's Jumbo Red and my seeds came from John Rahart, his son, as I indicated in my seed source book list, who inherited his father's seed collection. John is a dentist out west.

It's not unusual to see a red go to pink or the reverse b/c it's a simple spontanteous mutation that changes the epidermis color and I've had it happen with several varieties. Some folks go ahead, rename and distribute seeds for the wrong color, but I never did b'c I thought it was important to maintain the varieties for what they should be.

But certainly some folks have a different opinion about this than I do, witness some listings in the SSE Yearbooks/

[Tania]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Some folks go ahead, rename and distribute seeds for the wrong color, but I never did b'c I thought it was important to maintain the varieties for what they should be.

Carolyn,

I guess I am one of those people who would like to give it a new name (since it is not the real Andrew Rahart's Jumbo Red) and distribute the seeds, if it is stable. Is this wrong? Would it not qualify for a 'new' name?

Tania

[jwr6404]

Tania
I got my Andrew Raharts Jumbo Red seeds from Full Circle Seeds located in Sooke, BC,Canada. Will be planting them next year. They can be reached at www.fullcircleseeds.com

Jim

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Tania

Carolyn,

I guess I am one of those people who would like to give it a new name (since it is not the real Andrew Rahart's Jumbo Red) and distribute the seeds, if it is stable. Is this wrong? Would it not qualify for a 'new' name?

Tania

Is it wrong you ask?

Tania, I can't answer that question for you, I can only state my own opinion in not renaming and distributing seeds that don't match the original description of a variety.

Aside from the more common red to pink and vice versa change this also comes up with somatic mutations.

I never distributed seeds for the altered fruit form that appeared with a somatic mutation from Dix Doight de Naples nor did I distribute seeds for the red fruit form that resulted from a somatic mutation of Green Gage which is yellow.

But the somatic mutation that led to a single yellow fruit on Riesentraube gave forth to Yellow Riesentraube, so listed, and the same with Yellow Ping Pong, and there are other examples.

I never renamed and distributed seeds for my pink Cuostralee, which should be red, nor my pink Great Divide, which should be red. And there were other red/pink color changes that I can't remember right now.

The decision to rename and distribute seeds for varieties that don't match the original description is really up to you.

[Tania]

Cherokee Purple and Cherokee Chocolate would be another example I'd think.

[troad]

Tania,
I grew ARJR in 2007 from seed I bought from Marianna"s Seeds. That being said I never checked the epidermis for clear or yellow color. The tomatoes were tasty and red larger than my Red Brandywines (aka Landis strain--yes I read your posts Carolyn smile) but smaller than pink Brandywines that I grow. Will send you some to get you started if you like. Me sending you seeds seems odd.
(kind of like sending water to Niagra Falls) but whatever.

[Tania]

Len,

Thank you for your offer, that is very sweet! But I'll have to pass on it this time. Btw, I am waiting on the KBX seeds to be saved to send to you along with the others. It will not be long now, just a few weeks - I am waiting for the largest KBX fruit to ripen a bit more.

I was just about to post that I already secured the true Andrew Rahart's Jumbo Red seed from a source that I trust a lot.

THANK YOU!

[carolyn137]

Tania, in reviewing what you said initially I see that you were growing several Andrew plants.

Did all of them have pink fruits?

It appears to me from what you wrote that on one plant there was ONE fruit that was pink and the rest red.

Is that correct?

If so we're not talking here about an epidermis seed DNA mutation, which is common, we're talking about a somatic mutation.

[Tania]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Tania, in reviewing what you said initially I see that you were growing several Andrew plants.

Did all of them have pink fruits?

It appears to me from what you wrote that on one plant there was ONE fruit that was pink and the rest red.

Is that correct?

If so we're not talking here about an epidermis seed DNA mutation, which is common, we're talking about a somatic mutation.

I grew 3 plants (all seeds I had remaining), they all were identical and all had pink fruits (although 1 plant had the largest ones, but it may be attributed to better GH spot). Sorry for being unclear.

[carolyn137]

I grew 3 plants (all seeds I had remaining), they all were identical and all had pink fruits (although 1 plant had the largest ones, but it may be attributed to better GH spot). Sorry for being unclear.

****

If all three plants gave pink fruits then how can you be sure that it's Andrew Rahart's Jumbo Red ( or pink) that you grew?

it's quite possible that your seeds were an entirely different variety since the beefsteak shape is common to many many varieties, as you know.

If it were only one fruit on a plant with all red fruits that appeared ( somatic mutation) or one plant of several planted that had all pink fruit ( seed DNA mutation) then I think I'd suggest that it could have been a mutation.

But with all three plants giving pink fruits at this point it seems likely to me that it was probably not ARJR to start with.

[Tania]

could be - it just looks like the ARJR (except the skin color) to me.

Obviously I cannot run any DNA tests

It is certainly not ARJR, that's the only fact I know for sure. Wrong variety saved under ARJR name or a cross are the two possibilities. It is certainly not a stray seed, as there were several plants.

Which leaves me with a dilemma what do I call it, as it is a great tomato which I'd like to keep and check stability. Andrew Rahart's Jumbo Pink comes to my mind to indicate a possible connection with the ARJR. However, I am very open to other naming suggestions!

Tania

[carolyn137]

Tania, as I said above, there are many large pink RL beefsteaks that could look like what you have, meaning, there are the same that look like the RL ARJR. And since all three plants gave pink fruits I don't think it's anything related to ARJR.

I'd do three things.

First I'd backtrack on your seed source and see what you can find out.

Second, I'd save and sow seeds next season to be sure the pink comes true, which I think it will since all three plants gave pink fruits, so not a single seed DNA mutation and not a somatic mutation and not a stray seed.

Third, depending on what you find out from your seed source and if the pink seeds come true, then I'd give some thought to the situation.

It's perfectly possible that it's an already named variety that was sent to you by mistake and that's just one obvious scenario.