Creating new strains from selection?

[TomNJ]

I just started saving seeds (what a deal!) and am curious if I can affect future crops from the tomatoes I select for seed.

For example, for a given variety of tomato, if I save seeds from the very first tomatoes every year, will I eventually create a strain of earlier tomatoes for that variety? Likewise, if I save seeds from the largest tomato each year will I create a larger strain over the years. Or are the characteristics of a variety fixed in the genes/DNA regardless of which tomato you save the seed from (discounting random mutations)?

It would be a kick if I can alter a variety from selection over time!

TomNJ

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by TomNJ

I just started saving seeds (what a deal!) and am curious if I can affect future crops from the tomatoes I select for seed.

For example, for a given variety of tomato, if I save seeds from the very first tomatoes every year, will I eventually create a strain of earlier tomatoes for that variety? Likewise, if I save seeds from the largest tomato each year will I create a larger strain over the years. Or are the characteristics of a variety fixed in the genes/DNA regardless of which tomato you save the seed from (discounting random mutations)?

It would be a kick if I can alter a variety from selection over time!

TomNJ

Tom, I remain doubtful about being able to alter genetic traits by selection re tomatoes.

Anthony Neves supposedly was selecting for large size when he moved from the Azores to the Boston area, but since we don't know what he started out with there's no way of knowing what he might have accomplished.

Chuck Wyatt selected early fruits from Brandywine (Sudduth) for a few years, thought he had a Brandywine that was earlier and named it Brandywine (Joyce's strain), Joyce was his wife, but folks who have grown it don't see any significant difference in earliness at all.

And over the years I've seen others who have tried to select for large size and for earliness and even for taste when they thought they had a superior tasting this 9or that plant with fruits that tasted better, but IMO the results on that are dicey as well b'c of the different ways we all perceive taste, which is is personal and subjective.

Genetic traits can be selected for over time and the Ethiopian wheat story is an example of that, but it took a couple thousand years and such adaptations are called landraces. It's also occurred with certain rice varieties as adaptation to a certain area.

Supposedly cold tolerant tomato varieties such as Siberian and Glacier? Some say so, others aren't so sure.

Heat tolerant varieties? Some say so but again I'm not so sure based on a lot of feedback over the years, yet many varieties are "said" to be heat tolerant.

But heck, go for it if you want to and live long.

[nctomatoman]

Hi, Tom - many have thought of this as a way to make improvements, but since all genetic material in a stable variety is the same (so unless a bee visits the flower and makes a cross, or unless you are working with something that is unstable or a recent growout of a hybrid), all seeds are the same. Seedsmen at the turn of the century used to try this to produce new varieties and became frustrated because of the lack of results. It was actually Alexander Livingston who, in the late 1800s, discovered that it wasn't from selecting fruit on a plant that improvements or modifications could be made - but in selecting fruit from a particular plant that is different that you can get somewhere.

Example - let's say you plant 200 Rutgers (a well known non-hybrid, or open pollinated, variety) - or 200 Aunt Ruby's German Green - you get the idea. Well let's say that of that field of one variety, you notice that one plant ripens fruit a week earlier than the rest. Or one plant produced fruit that are significantly larger than the rest. It could be due to a mutation, or could be due to some crossing that occurred at some point - but it is when you save seed from the plant or plants that are distinctly different that you have a lead on producing a new variety.

Using that method (which he called single plant selection) allowed Livingston to make some of the truly historic improvements on tomatoes that other seedsmen couldn't manage.

Of course, it doesn't take a grow out of 200 plants of a variety - often you can come up with something different just by being observant - that is how I started work on Little Lucky and Lucky Cross, deciding to grow out a single regular leaf seedling from a planting of the potato leaf variety Brandywine. Or, this year, when growing out Cherokee Green, my plant has red fruit. The seed from that plant could be a hybrid, or a mix up - but if I grow out a number of saved seed, it will give me an idea of what it is, and a possible lead on developing something new and different.

Hope that helps!

[organichris]

Yeah, I would say for selection to make any noticeable difference in future generations, there would have to be a diverse gene pool to start out with. So yeah, growing out hybrids or something like that might work over time, but if you're dealing with something already stable, there just isn't much diversity to work with.

But I'm all about it in theory. There is just something about saving seeds that excites me. I'm not currently doing it. I used to back in the days when I cultivated something you're not supposed to talk about. And that particular plant is easy to cross-breed, since you have male and female plants - and you can get some very interesting results.

[TomNJ]

Caroline & Craig,

Thank you so much for that detailed and fascinating information. I've been growing tomatoes for 35 years to make salsa & sauce, but only started really studying them and planting heirlooms about 4 years ago. One of my Opalka plants this year produced a couple of 12+ ounce monsters, three times the average size, so I was hoping that saving these seeds separately might give me larger fruits next year. Apparently not, but I'll plant them anyhow and compare the fruits just for the fun of it.

TomNJ

[nctomatoman]

Hi, Tom - go ahead - you never know until you save the seed and grow it back out! No problem on providing info - ask away!

[stevenkh1]

Well...I think both you and Craig may find this interesting...

"In the winter of 1893-94, I had in the greenhouse the following varieties of tomatoes: Dwarf Champion, Potato Leaf, Prelude, Ponderosa, Golden Ball, Golden Peach, Rose Peach, Beauty, and Acme.

"I thought at first that I would make crosses of all of them, but after trying a while I found that my number of crosses would increase in an alarming ratio, so contented myself with making about thirty. I had found from previous work that it was something that could not be done all at once, so by attending to it regularly every day for three or four weeks, I had the pleasure of seeing fruit on nearly every variety that I tried. But, when I came to gather the seed I found that I did not always get seed. I found one large Ponderosa crossed with the Golden Ball that had not a seed in it. I have but little doubt that a seedless tomato can be procured, for I had one for two years that was about the size of a good sized cherry that produced no seed at all.

My experience with these crosses lead me to the opinion that they may be divided into two classes. First, the practical crosses, second, the curiosity crosses.

"A practical cross is one between varieties that are good, but from different strains, and near enough alike so they are not liable to sport back into original forms. A cross between the Beauty and Acme I do not think liable to sport, and I think it a possibility that we may add something of the good qualities of one to that of the other. If something of the earliness of the Acme could be added to the general good qualities of the Beauty, a desirable point would be gained. I made such a cross, and the second year the tomatoes were large and fine, but as to their earliness I could not say.

"My experience leads me to think that the Dwarf Champion crosses will come within the practical crosses. A cross between the Dwarf Champion and the Ponderosa gave me some of the finest and largest tomatoes in my whole lot, but I think that they will be more liable to sport than some others. I believe I am safe in saying that with time and patience almost any variety may be dwarfed. I ahd the Ponderosa fruit on dwarf vies; also yellow dwarf and red dwarf by the dozen. Also a dwarf potato leaf.

"Just where I draw the line between the practical crosses and the curiosity crosses is very hard to say, but I think if we take varieties that are best we may add something, for the tomato, left to itself, is self-fertilizing and that has been found not to be best in plants.

"Of the curiousity crosses, I think we may include those that are as far apart as is possible to have them and still make the crosses. Under these circumstances it is probable there will be an almost universal tendancy to sport and run back into the original form.

"The different crosses between the Peach tomatoes gave me some odd forms, but sported badly and were only interesting. Those of the Golden Ball were scarcely les sinteresting and no more valuable.

"Of the many crosses the breaking up did not occur the first year, but in the second.

"The cross between Dwarf Champion and Potato Leaf resembled neither the first year, but was more like the common tomato; but the second year sported into three forms. The only difference in foliage the first year was in a cross between the Dwarf Champion and Golden Ball, but the second year all differed entirely from those of the first.

"Perhaps the most valuable lesson learned in these curiousity crosses, was to learn something of the original form and color of the tomato. Red seems to be the original color, for a cross between two purple kinds gave me a red tomato in three different cases.

"Mr. A. W. Livingston, in his Tomato Book, speaks rather disparagingly of crossing the tomato to produce anything of value, but his plan has been by selection and cultivation. Now I believe that Mr. Livingston is right, for no man ever better proved he was in the right than he has, in almost incalcuable value of the tomato Mr. Livingston has given to the world; yet, before we can make our selections we must have something to select from, and crossing I am sure will give us that. I once asked Mr. Livingston where he obtained the Dwarf Aristocrat, and he said that it was found in a field of Dwarf Champions. "How did it get there?" I am inclined to think it a cross between some of the better red sorts, such as the Stone and the Dwarf, for I have produced, as I said before, red Dwarf by the dozens in this way. I was always sorry that I did not use the better red varieties on the Dwarf."

- source: 'Tomato Crossing', E.C. Green, Annual Report by Columbus Horticultural Society, Columbus Oh, pgs 52-53

Steve

[nctomatoman]

Absolutely, Steve - crossing for sure is a great way to find new varieties. I think the problem was that Livingston didn't have all that much stuff to work with - before his work, the morphological choices/varieties were quite limited.

Actually, it is important to recognize that tomato genetics didn't seem to be all that well understood back then - it is clear that Livingston was offering unstable varieties in a few catalogs (he probably made a cross, saw all sorts of interesting things in the F2 then offered them as seeds - but they were not stable at all yet, so they were withdrawn the following season).

In fact, on rereading the info you quoted above, the Dwarf Champion/Ponderosa cross is the very example that stimulated the idea of the Dwarf project for Patrina and I - that very cross led to the variety New Big Dwarf, released by Isbell.

Cool stuff - I love tomato history! Thanks so much for posting.

[stevenkh1]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

Absolutely, Steve - crossing for sure is a great way to find new varieties. I think the problem was that Livingston didn't have all that much stuff to work with - before his work, the morphological choices/varieties were quite limited.

Actually, it is important to recognize that tomato genetics didn't seem to be all that well understood back then - it is clear that Livingston was offering unstable varieties in a few catalogs (he probably made a cross, saw all sorts of interesting things in the F2 then offered them as seeds - but they were not stable at all yet, so they were withdrawn the following season).

In fact, on rereading the info you quoted above, the Dwarf Champion/Ponderosa cross is the very example that stimulated the idea of the Dwarf project for Patrina and I - that very cross led to the variety New Big Dwarf, released by Isbell.

Cool stuff - I love tomato history! Thanks so much for posting.

Glad to post it - I thought you might like it as Livingston is right up your alley.

Ya know Craig, it's apparent these old timers loved to pursue the mystery and mystique of tomatoes just as much as they loved tomatoes as an edible fruit. Somehow, I don't think these old timers would want to know the DNA facts we know today.