Seed Fermentation Methods

[TomNJ]

In reading Carolyn' Male's and Amy Goldman's tomato books, I noted significant differences in their methods for fermenting seeds.

Carolyn says to ferment for at least five days with no stirring, longer if air temperatures are below 80°F, and to dry the seeds for up to a week or more.

Amy says to ferment for four days, stirring 2-3 times a day, and to not exceed a temperature of 70°F, with drying for 3-4 weeks.

Since both ladies are tomato experts, it seems to me that both are probably right and the fermentation process is just very flexible. But it does raise the question of just how important are these variables.

My method is closer to Carolyn's. I ferment for 4-6 days depending on the temperature (80-95°F) with very gentle stirring once a day, and drying for one week.

What method do you use, and have you found time or temperature to be critical to seed viability?

TomNJ

[ContainerTed]

Tom, I did a document with pictures describing the fermentation method and it is available on Tatianas site. Give this a look and see if it answers some of your questions.

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/A...g_Fermentation

Ted

[Stepheninky]

I do min in an air conditioned space with a ceiling fan so 74 deg roughly, for 3-6 days.

Mainly i just look for the seeds to be at the bottom of the container and the separated layers of plant materials and that there is at least a milky white cloudiness to it to indicate that it is working. I do add a bit of water to mine. least with mine if you smell it there is a yeasty smell but not over powering or anything. I then just decanter it by filling with water and just pouring off repeating till I am left with only clean seed. I then place this back in the room with the ceiling fan as it provides good air circulation to dry the seeds.
When done drying the seeds are lose and very few if any are stuck together.

I think that there are probably variations on the same theme that people use and I do not think any of the are wrong per say. As long as you get good germination from the saved seed then that end result is what matters.

[carolyn137]

Tom, no two people use the same criteria for deciding how long one should ferment seeds, which I prefer to non natural methods. I look for the development of the fungal mat and not all varieties develop it at the same rate and some not at all. And some of that can be related to how thick or thin the contents of the fermentation mix are.

So what I gave was an average. I also monitor the process by looking for the appearance of bubbles coming from the fermentation that appear along the side of the plastic contaners I use.

Late in the Fall I may have to ferment up to a week b/c the ambient temps are so low and my fermentations are always done outside, out of the sun.

And drying seeds for about a week as I do works out fine for me and my conditions. If someone lives where the humidity is consistently high, which Amy does not, then drying for a longer period of time may be necessary.

How dry someone needs the seeds to be also relates to how they plan to store them. Some want to freeze them but that means using silica gel to bting the moisture content down to about 6-8% so that ice crystals don't form inside the seeds and destroy them/

And yes, I know Amy. She used to drive up from her home about an hour below Albany up to where I gardened each summer and take fruits from varieties I was growing and take them home to ferment them and I drove down to her place many times, but not to bring home tomato fruits. But we haven't communicated in several years now, basically, I think, b'c the Amy I once knew in the early 90's is not the Amy of today. Stuff happens, people change, and we move on.

[tjg911]

tom,

i follow carolyn's method. she did a great write up on gw years ago and i printed it out. if you want a copy i can photocopy and mail it to you but i'm sure the book says the same thing.

right now i have a bowl of dr. lyle on day 4 and it STINKS like hell in here (the office, the computer is 3' from that dish!).

tom

[OneoftheEarls]

I like scum on top and very stinky

5 days is good...never had any sprout even after a week. Right now I am doing seeds and wish they would ferment faster...dry is when the seeds easily break away from each other and is very important to have dry before storing...also 12 seeds dry faster than a few hundred so a formula does not always apply. Better to dry longer than to store away seeds with ANY moisture indicated.

[BigdaddyJ]

I ferment pretty much like Carolyn. Yes high temps do hurry the process. Yes I may have to add a few drops of water after 3 or 4 days sometimes. I ferment on the deck in shade. No stirring. It was a hot summer here and my ferments were finished in 5 to 7 days. I have no idea why Amy would say max 70F? As to the 3 to 4 weeks drying I just watched a Victory Garden repeat where she was fermenting and drying tomato seed and she had like 2,000+ seeds on that paper plate! I usually save from 2 to 4 fruit and spread my seeds out thinly. Amy didn't do that. Those seeds were an inch thick on that plate. Guess it WOULD take 2 or 3 weeks of drying with those numbers...

[Gobig_or_Gohome_toms]

I am in the 4-5 days camp right now when daily temps in the shade are 80 or so and for drying the longer I leave out I feel the better before storing in a plastic coin bag. I think 4 weeks is the norm for my drying time before putting in plastic coin sized bags and then into quart mason jars in the cool basement. I figure the longer the dry time the better.

Craig

[habitat_gardener]

Originally Posted by BigdaddyJ

... As to the 3 to 4 weeks drying I just watched a Victory Garden repeat where she was fermenting and drying tomato seed and she had like 2,000+ seeds on that paper plate! I usually save from 2 to 4 fruit and spread my seeds out thinly. Amy didn't do that. Those seeds were an inch thick on that plate. Guess it WOULD take 2 or 3 weeks of drying with those numbers...

I thought the seeds had to be one layer thick so that they wouldn't stay moist and sprout! I've been spending time pushing the seeds around with a plastic plant label or pencil so they're not stacked up. It goes fairly quickly.

And I looked it up in Carolyn's book again, and she does say to spread them out in a single layer so they won't germinate.

[Gobig_or_Gohome_toms]

I try and seperate out as best I can but do end up with some clumps of 5 or 6 seeds they are a single layer just not seperated and they dry down fine and seperate easily once dry.

[Wi-sunflower]

drying tomato seed and she had like 2,000+ seeds on that paper plate! Amy didn't do that. Those seeds were an inch thick on that plate.

I tried that when I first did larger quantities about 4 or 5 years ago. My first batch of seeds DID start to sprout on about day 2 or 3 due to the water that collected on the bottom of the plate even tho the seeds had been drained in a mesh strainer.

I then realized you need a way to let that water get away FAST.

i made some "plates I use for everything. i cut some nylon window screen material into approximate 8-10 inch squares. I then use some foam insulation "caulk" filler to make a ring. i hot glue the screen to the ring and i have a screen plate that drains the water fast. I put those plates full of seed on a wire restaurant type rack so the plate isn't sitting on a shelf or anything solid that could hold the water.

After 24 hours I will rub all the seed on a plate to break up the mat of seeds. That helps it dry faster and elimanates most of the big clumps you would get if you wait til they are totally dry.

Carol

[carolyn137]

I hate to bring this up but if any of you are like me you have some guests that appear in your fermentation containers that are outside in the shade and that's maggots.

So.....if you spread out the seeds as best you can you can sit there and watch any decanted maggots squirm and die as the water on the paper plate evaporates.

No, I don't have any killer tendencies, relax folks, I'm just saying that maggots can appear in the seeds dumped on a paper plate and if you don't spread out the seeds two things can happen; some seeds will germinate and the maggots will live longer.

When the seeds are dry for sure they'll be in small clumps even when spread thinly. I take the side of a paper clip to scrape them off the plate and don't worry about getting the dead maggots out until I'm taking seeds from their vial or envelope to put in the coin envelopes I use when sending seeds. it's when I'm sorting the seeds on my tomato table that I separate out any small or misshapen seeds as well as dead maggots and any other debris.

I must be pretty good at demagotting my saved seeds b'c no one has yet made a comment and I've been saving seeds and distributing them for about 25 years now.

[BigdaddyJ]

Originally Posted by habitat_gardener

I thought the seeds had to be one layer thick so that they wouldn't stay moist and sprout! I've been spending time pushing the seeds around with a plastic plant label or pencil so they're not stacked up. It goes fairly quickly.

And I looked it up in Carolyn's book again, and she does say to spread them out in a single layer so they won't germinate.

Well, Amy Goldman must not read Carolyn's book! I just saw the VG repeat show a week or two ago. That might explain why she needs to dry them so long?

[BigdaddyJ]

And my inch description of what I saw probably is off. It's just a figure of speech I use. It may have been a quarter or half inch deep but they certainly were on top of each other and not seperated out in a thin layer like I do mine. The second day I use a butter knife to scrape the seeds off the paper plate and onto a new one and again seperate as best I can and this is easy unless you are doing thousands of seeds at the same time.

[TomNJ]

I spread my seeds on a sheet of printer paper, and use the bamboo skewers mentioned in Ted's method to separate the seeds so that none are touching another. This way they appear dry in a day or two, but I give them a week. I also store them in a sealed container with drierite desiccant added, and keep them in the cool cellar.

TomNJ