Black Bear

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Tania

Ami,

This is very interesting! Hmmm.... the only russian tomato I know of with a racially discriminatory name was 'Negrityonok' (and the only reason the name sounded discriminatory to English speakers is because it was incorrectly translated into English - there is nothing discriminatory or derogatory in the original Russian name). Having said that, Negrityonok is a small (2-5 oz) black tomato, so it does not quite fit.

I am hoping Andrey will chime in here - as Mr. Kraft mentioned Belarus I wonder if the seeds came from Andrey.

Tania

Tania, here is a composite search about that variety and it was all brought about by at that time a Tville member who was black and was upset with the name.

There are many other threads in this same search where it was suggested renaming it, should varieties be renamed, etc.

http://tomatoville.com/search.php?searchid=601127

Andrey is listing it as Negrityonok in the 2010 Yearbook and I think Neil was at first as well, and then deleted it in the YEarbook; I didn't goback to check that out.

Andrey says 140-160 gm round fruits and says the name translates as "Little Blackman" and it's a Russian CV.

It's the only listing for this variety in the 2010 and I didn't go back to check other listings but when I looked at the listings for Black BEar the sizes noted are much bigger, so I don't know what's happened between Andrey sending it to Reinhard, as he has other varieties, and others growing it out, etc.

For instance Neil says 8-14 oz pink/black fruits for Black Bear, seeds from Reinhard, Al Anderson says 8-14 oz fruits, seeds from Neil and Marianne Jones says 8-18 oz fruits, seeds from Neil.

So I don't know how Andrey's 2-3 oz ones suddenly went up in size. Reinhard's response to Ami indicated that he, Reinhard, was the one who changed the name from Negrityonok to Black Bear but so help me I can't see any similarity size-wise although all speak of a large pink black when listing Black Bear.And both varieties are noted to be RL and indeterminate.

[amideutch]

Andrey's Description from his 2006 listing at TVille.

Negrityonok ~ Little African-American (Rus.>Eng.) mid-late, indet. plant with a good yield of dark-red/brown, round 140-160 g fruits, nice sweet taste, desease tolerant 150/150 from Russian CV Poisk 5 seeds.

Reinhards description of Black Bear from his 2006 grow out.

Brownish-red, intensively spicy meat tomato, to 500 G. robust sort from Russia, approx. 1.5 m highly growing.

I PM'd Andrey to comment on Reinhard's e-mail to me concerning Black Bear this thread.

So right now it is only an assumption that Black Bear is Negrityonok which is listed in the 2010 yearbook by Andrey fitting his description above. Reinhard grew out the variety in 2006 which means he probably got his seed in 2005. So until we get a response from Andrey saying black bear is Negrityonok and he did in fact send the seed to Reinhard it is nothing more than pure conjecture on Carolyn's part. Ami

[Tania]

Carolyn,

I am familiar with the thread you mentioned above.

The more appropriate translation for the name would have been ''Little Black Child', and 'Negrityonok' word has a special affectionate (positive) feeling/passion towards a black child in Russian language. There is nothing derogatory in the original Russian name.

Tania

[Tania]

I agree with Ami that we should not jump into any conclusions about 'Negrityonok' = 'Black Bear', until we get more info.

Tania

[amideutch]

Here is Andrey's reply to my PM. Ami

Hi Ami!
Yes, I've been there and see quite nice looking fruits, but those might be any tomato from our former USSR countries with blackish skin color indeed. Too many to even to see many differences. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amideutch
Andrey, please look in the Photo Forum under the Black Bear thread I started and see my last post and maybe you might know what Reinhard Kraft was referring to as to the name of the tomato before he changed the name to Black Bear.

Ted

[Andrey_BY]

Sorry for a very fast and not so true reply from me, Ami. As I can see in my copybook with all varieties that I've sent before abroad - yes, it is Negrityonok tomato which I sent to Reinhard. And of course, I can't see any discrimination in this name because in Russian it has a normal positive feeling as Tania said. And in general were are not into politically correct things at all. Russian world and lexicon are different ;-)

[carolyn137]

So until we get a response from Andrey saying black bear is Negrityonok and he did in fact send the seed to Reinhard it is nothing more than pure conjecture on Carolyn's part. Ami

****

Not pure conjecture Ami b/c Reinhard said he got them from Belarus and I knew that Andrey had sent seeds to Reinhard before so all I was doing was trying to connect the dots.

And now Andrey has said that it was he who sent the seeds to Reinhard, so I was correct in my assumptions.

I'm still puzzled by the differences in sizes noted by those who have grown Black Bear, as named by Reinhard, vs the size Andrey has said they should be as Negrityonok. As I see it they should be the same variety and there shouldn't be such a huge difference in fruit size.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Tania

Ami,

This is very interesting! Hmmm.... the only russian tomato I know of with a racially discriminatory name was 'Negrityonok' (and the only reason the name sounded discriminatory to English speakers is because it was incorrectly translated into English - there is nothing discriminatory or derogatory in the original Russian name). Having said that, Negrityonok is a small (2-5 oz) black tomato, so it does not quite fit.

I am hoping Andrey will chime in here - as Mr. Kraft mentioned Belarus I wonder if the seeds came from Andrey.

Tania

The problem with the name wasn't just how it was translated for English speaking individuals. As I said above the initial complaint here at Tville, which is noted in a thread in that composite search I did and linked to and also mentioned above was b'c of a former Tville member who was African American and was upset with the name, actually very upset. That's what initiated all those threads and posts here at Tville that I linked to.

I understand that the name isn't a problem for some, as you and Andrey have pointed out, but it could be, and was, a real problem for the African-American individual who was here at that time.

[amideutch]

Andrey, thank you for the update. Carolyn, I stand corrected. I will see if I can get seed for Negrityonok from Andrey and do a side by side grow out with Black Bear next year and see what we come up with. Two German sites I found that list descriptions for Black Bear had fruit weight over 200 grams as Rheinhard and one had it RL and the other had it PL. So the 200 + matches what I got and yet to see a PL. Ami

[Andrey_BY]

OK, I'm gonna send you Negrityonok seeds a little bit later for this experiment. The biggest fruits I was managed to get from Negrityonok plant was in about 200 g and most about 150 g.