Cross or Seed Mixup?

flyingbrass · March 13, 2011

I bought seeds from Remy and started them Jan. 1. 100% germination. I only did 3 KBX tomatoes. Somewhere along the line I noticed one of the KBX showing regular leaves.

Reading about the variety history at the tomato database, KBX originated in 2002 from supposedly Kellogg's Breakfast seeds that grew 50/50 regular and potato leaved plants.

I realize seed mixups happen, both from sellers and planters. Maybe also some unintentional crosses. I'm not complaining; quite the opposite. This is interesting. I'm wondering what's going on here. Some of the lower leaves are (and were before they got plucked off for planting) more potato-like, yet everything above is regular leaf.

What are the odds this is actually a KBX with some recessive traits showing vs. a seed mixup or cross?

KLorentz · March 13, 2011

Another thing it might be is a through back to regular leaf which happens from time to time.Just a thought. Btw that is a very healthy plant.Looks like your doin a good job.

Kevin

**nctomatoman** · March 13, 2011

Here is a hint to see if it is indeed Kellogg's Breakfast (as a segregate back out of the PL "version"). Of course, note an official test, just something to look for that could give a hint - as a young seedling, did the cot. leaves tend to yellow or brown - and did the young seedling look particularly wimpy? Of all of the varieties I've grown over the years, KB ALWAYS gets crud - from all sorts of seed sources, my own saved seed, commercial seed, etc - and makes the most awful looking young seedlings of all. KBX doesn't do this at all......

anyway, just for laughs! (in no way is this a confirmation type of test!)

flyingbrass · March 14, 2011

Thanks. My inexperience is a handicap.

This is the first time I've started tomatoes from seed. The cotyledons on all my plants (different varieties) at one point developed dry/burned tips. That happened within 24 hours after watering one morning while the plants were in full sunlight. The plants at the time were used to full sun. They were still in straight Jiffy Mix at the time, nothing else added. I'm still wondering what caused that. My chlorinated water, the time of day I watered and subsequent temperatures, or ?

Later, after potting into a brand of "potting soil" that I won't use again, leaf tip burn continued each time I watered. After being planted in the ground, all plants so far are doing fine.

I've read about "crud" occurring during the seedling stage, but don't know what it is exactly.

**carolyn137** · March 14, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingbrass

Thanks. My inexperience is a handicap.

This is the first time I've started tomatoes from seed. The cotyledons on all my plants (different varieties) at one point developed dry/burned tips. That happened within 24 hours after watering one morning while the plants were in full sunlight. The plants at the time were used to full sun. They were still in straight Jiffy Mix at the time, nothing else added. I'm still wondering what caused that. My chlorinated water, the time of day I watered and subsequent temperatures, or ?

Later, after potting into a brand of "potting soil" that I won't use again, leaf tip burn continued each time I watered. After being planted in the ground, all plants so far are doing fine.

I've read about "crud" occurring during the seedling stage, but don't know what it is exactly.

I coined the word CRUD many years ago when I started seeing mainly heart varieties, but KB and a few others that had brown edges and tips on the leaves and it seemed to spread to nearby plants. Since I didn't know what what it was I asked Dr. Tom Zitter at Cornell, a tomato infectious disease person, about it and he said he knew what I was talking about and they thought it was an aberrant form of Early Blight ( A. solani) but had not been able to prove it and I've heard nothing more.

If one strips off all the affected leaves the plants look like sticks, but once set out in a field or garden they grow very well with no more leaf symtoms.

Hope that helps.

flyingbrass · March 14, 2011

Thanks, Carolyn. Pictures would help a lot for diagnosing "crud," at least for newbies like me.

How often do "stabilized" tomato varieties vary in characteristics as basic as leaf style? What criteria is used to define "stable"?

**carolyn137** · March 14, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingbrass

Thanks, Carolyn. Pictures would help a lot for diagnosing "crud," at least for newbies like me.

How often do "stabilized" tomato varieties vary in characteristics as basic as leaf style? What criteria is used to define "stable"?

I don't think pictures would help b'c symptoms similar to CRUD can be seen if the N content of the soil mix is too rich in N and also if the soil mix is consistently too wet. Also the fact that usually, but not always, CRUD can spread to nearby plants

Just think primarily heart varieties and KB and a few more I can't remember now and that should be your primary suspects, mainly the hearts.

If a variety is genetically stabilized, it's then called open pollinated, OP, there should be no change in leaf form from saved seeds unless there's been a mutation or a natural cross pollination.

Genetically stable means that seeds saved from an OP variety when replanted give rise to the same plant and fruits that are found with the original correct OP variety, again, if there's no spontaneous mutation, which is rare, or a natural cross pollination, which is less rare.

remy · March 14, 2011

I would be interested to know what happens. All the plants I grew last year were PL and to description(I think I started about 10 of them,) but I went and checked my record of my seed. I received it in 2007 so it was probably from the 2006 growing season and that persons seed might of been from 2004 or whatever so it might not be that many generations out from the original discovery of it. Knowing that could be possible it is a RL from KBX. Or maybe it is just a stray.
Remember to let me know,
Remy

flyingbrass · March 15, 2011

I'll post an update later in the season and compare with the two other KBX plants that are PL.

I don't know how well any of the varieties I chose will fare in this desert environment. Of the 6 I ended up with, I'm thinking Cherokee Purple has a decent chance of being successful, and I have high hopes for Sophie's Choice being good in pots, perhaps even working productively pushing the outer boundaries of our traditional tomato growing seasons. I plan to start more Sophie's from cuttings.

Conventional wisdom seems to be to use smaller, shorter time to maturity tomatoes here. I'll see what happens this year and go from there.

Whatever happens, this is fun.

March 13, 2011	#3
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	Here is a hint to see if it is indeed Kellogg's Breakfast (as a segregate back out of the PL "version"). Of course, note an official test, just something to look for that could give a hint - as a young seedling, did the cot. leaves tend to yellow or brown - and did the young seedling look particularly wimpy? Of all of the varieties I've grown over the years, KB ALWAYS gets crud - from all sorts of seed sources, my own saved seed, commercial seed, etc - and makes the most awful looking young seedlings of all. KBX doesn't do this at all...... anyway, just for laughs! (in no way is this a confirmation type of test!) __________________ Craig

March 14, 2011	#8
remy Buffalo-Niagara Tomato TasteFest™ Coordinator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Z6 WNY Posts: 2,354	I would be interested to know what happens. All the plants I grew last year were PL and to description(I think I started about 10 of them,) but I went and checked my record of my seed. I received it in 2007 so it was probably from the 2006 growing season and that persons seed might of been from 2004 or whatever so it might not be that many generations out from the original discovery of it. Knowing that could be possible it is a RL from KBX. Or maybe it is just a stray. Remember to let me know, Remy __________________ "I wake to sleep and take my waking slow" -Theodore Roethke Yes, we have a great party for WNY/Ontario tomato growers every year on Grand Island! Owner of The Sample Seed Shop

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March 13, 2011	#2
KLorentz Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Stryker, Ohio Posts: 995	Another thing it might be is a through back to regular leaf which happens from time to time.Just a thought. Btw that is a very healthy plant.Looks like your doin a good job. Kevin

March 14, 2011	#4
flyingbrass Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Glendale, AZ 9b Posts: 90	Thanks. My inexperience is a handicap. This is the first time I've started tomatoes from seed. The cotyledons on all my plants (different varieties) at one point developed dry/burned tips. That happened within 24 hours after watering one morning while the plants were in full sunlight. The plants at the time were used to full sun. They were still in straight Jiffy Mix at the time, nothing else added. I'm still wondering what caused that. My chlorinated water, the time of day I watered and subsequent temperatures, or ? Later, after potting into a brand of "potting soil" that I won't use again, leaf tip burn continued each time I watered. After being planted in the ground, all plants so far are doing fine. I've read about "crud" occurring during the seedling stage, but don't know what it is exactly.

March 15, 2011	#9
flyingbrass Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Glendale, AZ 9b Posts: 90	I'll post an update later in the season and compare with the two other KBX plants that are PL. I don't know how well any of the varieties I chose will fare in this desert environment. Of the 6 I ended up with, I'm thinking Cherokee Purple has a decent chance of being successful, and I have high hopes for Sophie's Choice being good in pots, perhaps even working productively pushing the outer boundaries of our traditional tomato growing seasons. I plan to start more Sophie's from cuttings. Conventional wisdom seems to be to use smaller, shorter time to maturity tomatoes here. I'll see what happens this year and go from there. Whatever happens, this is fun.