1 Cup Epsom Salts Per Plant - REALLY??

[fortyonenorth]

Really interesting thread, Ray. My quick (very rough) calculations equates 2 cups of ES (10% Mg) per Earthtainer with about 700 lb. Mg per acre. As a point of reference, when I first build my raised beds - using a soil mix roughly equal to your mix - I had the mix tested before adding any amendments. The results suggested adding the equivalent of 100 lb. Mg per acre to achieve 15% base saturation, which is considered a balanced proportion for Mg.

My guess is that this much Mg will tie-up Calcium and contribute to BER and nutrient deficiencies. But, who knows, I'll look forward to hearing the results from your trial.

One other thought: 2 cups thoroughly mixed in a big Earthtainer is probably similar to a few tablespoons in the bottom of a single planting hole. So, maybe it's not as extreme as it seems.

[swamper]

Ray R is correct. The procedure might work in the right environment, but is very wasteful, not to mention the excess sulfate which will run off and end up somewhere, where it might cause ecological problems.

If you're convinced that a lot of MgSO4 is needed, then add a tsp to a gallon of water and water your plants with it once a week. Waste isn't wise, and I'm quite sure the success of those plants want just due to magnesium sulfate.

If I can vent for a minute, the problem with these online forums is that really silly ideas propagate wildly based upon he said she said. Here's an example.

[Dewayne mater]

Swamper - you are certainly entitled to vent and even encouraged to do so in my opinion. However, everything from the title of this thread, to every post by Ray N references that this is an experiment based on successes someone else had and not a firm recommendation of a proven concept. I'm sure you reviewed Ray N's many posts using the earthtainer and therefore know that the entire concept of them was the avoidance of waste, particular wasting water. I'm sure you've also seen some incredible successes that Ray N has enjoyed with his earthtainers and that all along the way, he tinkers with new fertilizers, new growing mediums, new just about anything that might affect tomato health and productivity.

Personally, I'm giddy every time Ray comes up with a new experiment because he will try them out in a way that attempts to have control groups, etc, that is a small scale experimentation with enough potential to try it out his success stories at home. By using his methods, I've been able to get earlier tomatoes than I otherwise did, more tomatoes per plant and have the plants last longer into the season as well. Maybe the epsom salt thing is going to work, maybe it isn't. That is the fun of experimenting with environmental factors...to see if it will. Perhaps your comment that this is a silly idea will prove to be accurate. However, it may not. If you have some basis for why it is a silly idea, I'm sure Ray and all of us would be interested in knowing that, so we can put to bed this attempt at environmental manipulation.

Dewayne mater

[Heritage]

swamper,

Without our "silly" journeys, the earth would still be flat. I have farmed long enough to know that things seldom work out like they do on paper. I commend Ray for his out-of-the-box thinking (or in-the-box, in this case) and look forward to reading his results.

Steve

[Dutch]

I too have learned a lot from Raybo's control experiments. I was born in the 40s and raised on a small farm in Wisconsin where we made a living raising chickens and growing vegetables. I thought I knew all that I needed to know about gardening, until I came to this site and discovered that there is so much more for me to learn. Raybo by all means test on!

[swamper]

As with most any salt, 99+% of the sulfate applied runs out the drainage holes of the container inhj the first few waterings. A very small percentage will be used by the plants. Sulfate SO4 produces sulfuric acid H2SO4 in solution with water. I simply suggested an alternative that would be responsible. The suggested method is not.

This practice is both irresponsible and wasteful. I am not attacking Ray N, but you seem very close to attacking me by suggesting that I am attempting to manipulte the environment here. Leave the personalities out of the issue and focus on the principles please.

If you want to know what damage sulfate will do to the environment visit an abandoned coal mine or measure the corrosion of the sewer pipes downstream.

[fortyonenorth]

On the surface, it seems somewhat radical, but who defines what is "radical." About six weeks ago there was an article in Time magazine about this guy growing soybeans in Missouri. He was doing all this wacky sh*t - burning it out with Nitrogen and letting grow back, burying drip line 3' deep, etc. - stuff that no one in the "mainstream" would dream of doing. Anyway, he's getting over 160 bushels/acre - 4x the national average. His success was off the charts by conventional standards. His advice: "try something new every year...even if it seem bizarre...you've got to know where the edge of the cliff is, go over it and pul yourself up..."

Now, all the fert manufacturers and seed companies are beating a path to his door - trying to cash-in on his success, I'm sure. You never know unless you try.

[dustdevil]

Ray, is there any brand of epsom salts that you recommend? Did you research this in order to avoid impurities?

[fortyonenorth]

As Dewayne pointed out above, the Earthtainer is a closed system - there is no run-off. So, any sulfates would be retained within the reservoir and available to be wicked-up into the growing medium.

[rnewste]

Dust,

I am using the CVS brand of Epsom Salt(s):



As one of its 3 uses is recommended as a "saline laxative" which one would ingest, I don't see that if it is OK to use this way, why it wouldn't be safe to use on plants.

Next point, another recommended use as per the package instructions is as a garden fertilizer:



If you do the math on the dosage per tomato plant / per lineal foot of height, then one would apply a total of 50 Teaspoons over the course of our growing Season here in California. Well, it just turns out that there are 48 Teaspoons in 1 Cup of the Epsom Salts that I am mixing into the EarthTainer, on a per plant basis. So, maybe Bingster is on to something.

Regarding "environmental responsibility" one should do a bit of research on the water conservation properties inherent with the EarthTainer design. NO water ever flows out of the EarthTainer water reservoir throughout the ENTIRE course of the growing Season. My main concern is any potential issues with excessive salts building up in the Grow Media over the year.

I would also make the point for scientific consideration, that if one follows the recommendation on the Espom Salts package with regard to in-ground growing, then YES, you are injecting 1 Cup per plant eventually into the ground water system. So, one would conclude the use of Epsom Salts in an EarthTainer where it is all self contained, is of greater environmental responsibility. Agreed?

As a Resident of Silicon Valley, with children (and now grandchildren) drinking from our underground water aquifer, I truly am sensitized to the issue of water quality.

Now, can we get back to the "science" of why Bingster's 1 Cup Epsom Salts per plant in a SWC really seems to work?

Raybo

[brog]

Ray THANKS for all your investigations over the years, trying to find better ways to improve our understanding of growing tomatoes and protecting our envorinnment. If parhaps someone dosn`t understand your process let it be,we`ll allow one mistake before wen burn you at the STAKE. Bill

[RayR]

The more you think about this, the more questions it raises. Does overdosing the Earthtainer mix with magnesium sulfate have any benefit or is it just overkill and a waste of Epsom Salts? Does it have any detrimental effects in future seasons like you would get with over applying Dolimite Lime? I would think you would have enough magnesium in the soil with just the Dolomite that you added.

We can only speculate at this point as to what is going on chemically in the growing medium.
From what we know about plants, they will only take up the nutrients that they need, you can't force a plant to take up an overdose through its roots, though you can damage its roots with an overdose of some nutrients in the soil.

Magnesium and Sulphur are necessary but minor nutrients so it's inconceivable that most of that Epsom Salts will be utilized by the plants. Since the Earthtainer is a closed system, where does all that excess go? Is it just free floating in the water or is it getting bound up in a cation exchange in the medium particles or is it being chemically altered in another compound? What effect does it have on soil microbes and what effect does it have on uptake of other nutrients?

OK, my head hurts now.
Raybo, I'm all for experimenting to find out if some gardening method (no matter how crazy it sounds) works or not, but I'm glad you are doing this experiment and not me.

[rnewste]

Ray,

Not my "intellect" who came up with this - - It was Bingster's original idea. I am simply trying to confirm if what he showed in his photos was repeatable in my EarthTainers. Too early to draw any conclusion (perhaps I should have just waited until December to report final results) but I thought posting the blow-by-blow "experience" was a better way of documenting this experiment. Remember, the headline in my Thread was: REALLY??"

Raybo

[RayR]

Raybo, I understand that you are just the mythbuster seeking the truth.
I like the blow-by-blow experience better, it's more interesting and entertaining. It's like an evolving reality TV show with audience participation right here on Tomatoville.

[carolyn137]

Whoa!

Stop, look both ways and listen when you cross the street and when crossing, nod to those who have stopped to let you cross and smile and thank them for stopping as you nod your head in their direction.

Got it?