Willus' Indoor Fall-Winter-Spring Grow Log (Season 2012-13)

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Tracydr

Doesn't the BT used for mosquitoes also kill gnats?

The strain used to control mosquitoes is called Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis and it controls various species of mosquitoes, fungus gnats, and blackflies, while having almost no effect on other organisms.

[z_willus_d]

Hi Marla, I just finished reading the paper you linked. First, I'll note that I had another tomato (the 2nd) fall off an adjacent vine (Iditarod) today. It was a much smaller, almost cherry sized green tomato. It seemed to be rotten inside, but undetectable and green on the outside. I didn't take pictures.

From the paper, I thought this statement well matched my observations:
"The decay is mostly internal and is hard to detect on the outside of the green fruit unless the stem end is examined very carefully. Here it shows as small brown spots or a thin brown ring around the stem end or a discoloration of the stem scar..."

I thought it was interesting to read that the bacterial inoculations didn't take well in the stem and leaves of the plant. So does that mean this isn't a systemic issue?
"Inoculations were made in the leaves and stems of tomato plants, but no infection resulted. At first the stems browned somewhat, but in a few days the browning disappeared."

I'd say this pretty well sums up the thesis. I probably do have those warm temps and perhaps what might be considered moist conditions at around 60%.
"Enough [bacteria and fungus] have been worked with, however, to establish the necessary proof that the stem and central decay of tomatoes is a parasitic disease induced while the fruit is green by various organisms under conditions of high temperature and high
moisture."

They didn't remark much on treatment/prevention other than some notes about soil cultivation having a beneficial effect (and a brief suggestion that fertilizer could enhance the problem). I'm trying to keep air circulating more, leaving the bedroom door open at night. I'm also considering opening the window to cool down temps at night, but the bedroom is adjacent to my hallway thermostat, and I'd hate to have the heater run amok and off kilter for this.

Well, we'll see if I can get a fruit to ripen soon. Thanks for posting such a great and pertinent reference to understanding what I appear to be facing.
Naysen

[artis]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

The strain used to control mosquitoes is called Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis and it controls various species of mosquitoes, fungus gnats, and blackflies, while having almost no effect on other organisms.

In my experience, Gnatrol (BT) is the only organic method that completely and reliably irradicates fungus gnats. I had infestations last year and this year and it worked well both times. Gnatrol does have an expiration date, so it is important that the reseller that has repackaged it has it on the label.

Unfortunately, Gnatrol does not seem to have any effect on thrips, which are a far more serious problem than fungus gnats anyway. My plants suffered a thrip infestation last winter. In the end, I terminated all plants and totally cleaned out everything to fight the infestation. I suspect that the thrips came from a soilless mix that I had purchased from a local greenhouse, where the mix had become infected.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by artis

In my experience, Gnatrol (BT) is the only organic method that completely and reliably irradicates fungus gnats. I had infestations last year and this year and it worked well both times. Gnatrol does have an expiration date, so it is important that the reseller that has repackaged it has it on the label.

Unfortunately, Gnatrol does not seem to have any effect on thrips, which are a far more serious problem than fungus gnats anyway. My plants suffered a thrip infestation last winter. In the end, I terminated all plants and totally cleaned out everything to fight the infestation. I suspect that the thrips came from a soilless mix that I had purchased from a local greenhouse, where the mix had become infected.

Gnatrol is Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis and yes it is effective, in many cases even more effective than insecticides. Many pests can develop insecticide resistance, but not Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis

[ChrisK]

Resistance can occur from use of any insecticide be it organic, bio-pesticide or synthetic.

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Gnatrol is Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis and yes it is effective, in many cases even more effective than insecticides. Many pests can develop insecticide resistance, but not Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

Resistance can occur from use of any insecticide be it organic, bio-pesticide or synthetic.

"Can" is the key word here. While it is theoretically possible, maybe even probable eventually, the odds of it happening in this case are many magnitudes less likely than chemical pesticides, even organic types like neem. There are many advantages to Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis

There are many reasons for this. I think you know why too. So I am not exactly sure why you brought it up. Tracydr asked a simple question about a very effective biological control option, and I answered.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by artis

Unfortunately, Gnatrol does not seem to have any effect on thrips, which are a far more serious problem than fungus gnats anyway. My plants suffered a thrip infestation last winter. In the end, I terminated all plants and totally cleaned out everything to fight the infestation. I suspect that the thrips came from a soilless mix that I had purchased from a local greenhouse, where the mix had become infected.

Have you tried Beauveria bassiana?

It is found in most greenhouse supply outlets. It is not selective though. So if you also raise bees or other beneficials in your greenhouse it will effect them too.

[artis]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Have you tried Beauveria bassiana?

It is found in most greenhouse supply outlets. It is not selective though. So if you also raise bees or other beneficials in your greenhouse it will effect them too.

Scott,

Many thanks for the suggestion! I had not heard about Beauveria bassiana before. I really hated the thrip infestation. I can live with fungus gnats, most of the time they just jump around clumsily and feed on the soil (and roots I guess). Thrips however totally devastated my plants.

Perhaps Willus should try Beauveria bassiana? A couple of posts before his yellow sticky traps seemed to be covered in thrips.

[ChrisK]

Yah, Bti is good stuff, and resistance will likely occur slower than with other pesticides. While it's effective now, monitoring and good strategies will be required to maintain this efficacy. There is one mosquito strain that is moderately resistant under lab conditions. Evolution always wins.

Originally Posted by Redbaron

"Can" is the key word here. While it is theoretically possible, maybe even probable eventually, the odds of it happening in this case are many magnitudes less likely than chemical pesticides, even organic types like neem. There are many advantages to Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis

There are many reasons for this. I think you know why too. So I am not exactly sure why you brought it up. Tracydr asked a simple question about a very effective biological control option, and I answered.

[z_willus_d]

Scott, thanks for sharing the Mycotrol (Beauveria bassiana) link. I hadn't heard of that one before, and I probably could have used it last season where I had a serious thrip infestation plaguing my crops. I am concerned about the potential hazardous effects it could leave upon the beneficials -- bees, ladybugs, etc. They state, "BotaniGard is safe for use with many beneficial insects" in the brochure, but don't go into details beyond that as to which are safe. Indoors, that's less of an issue, where I really don't have any beneficials.

I'm not so pro about the near $100 price tag for a quart. That's pricy, and the practical side of me always has to weigh the costs against lbs of $5-6 a lb organic tomatoes I might purchase at the market, minus all the hassle (and rewards) of doing it myself. It would be good to understand the shelf-life of the product, given a quart is supposed to cover an acre, and all I'd need is a tsp / gal for my uses.

Thanks again,
Naysen

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Scott, thanks for sharing the Mycotrol (Beauveria bassiana) link. I hadn't heard of that one before, and I probably could have used it last season where I had a serious thrip infestation plaguing my crops. I am concerned about the potential hazardous effects it could leave upon the beneficials -- bees, ladybugs, etc. They state, "BotaniGard is safe for use with many beneficial insects" in the brochure, but don't go into details beyond that as to which are safe. Indoors, that's less of an issue, where I really don't have any beneficials.

I'm not so pro about the near $100 price tag for a quart. That's pricy, and the practical side of me always has to weigh the costs against lbs of $5-6 a lb organic tomatoes I might purchase at the market, minus all the hassle (and rewards) of doing it myself. It would be good to understand the shelf-life of the product, given a quart is supposed to cover an acre, and all I'd need is a tsp / gal for my uses.

Thanks again,
Naysen

It is my understanding that the dry powder has a very long shelf life as it is dormant spores. However the liquid form has a short shelf life. Remember though it is concentrated. A quart will cover an entire acre.

I say this because so far I haven't actually been forced to use it. I don't garden under glass, and I do my best to keep up a beneficial population outside.

I have actually used the very old technique from years ago......to "brew your own". And I did manage to grow something I highly suspect was Beauveria bassiana or at least something like it. I have seen the spore covered pests.

In the old days before all these new products, we used to simply collect as many pests as possible, put them in a blender, ferment them, then strain the "juice" and spray. 9 times out of 10 some kind of "infection" would then infect the pests. But of course this wasn't as effective as using a product you are sure contains a specific biological.

My guess is the scientist types investigated our primitive organic techniques and figured out why they worked, then isolated the biologicals (bacteria and fungus) that were making it work, so they could sell it back to us.

[z_willus_d]

Scott, I did a bit of web searching and found this on the shelf-life:
http://www.bioworksinc.com/products/...shelf-life.pdf

It looks like 12-18mo., and the suspended "ES" product has the 18 (everything else, inc. dry powder is at 12 mo.) It would be very difficult for me to make use of even the smallest pint sized product in a season (year). Maybe I'll start to blending up baddies.

-naysen

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Scott, I did a bit of web searching and found this on the shelf-life:
http://www.bioworksinc.com/products/...shelf-life.pdf

It looks like 12-18mo., and the suspended "ES" product has the 18 (everything else, inc. dry powder is at 12 mo.) It would be very difficult for me to make use of even the smallest pint sized product in a season (year). Maybe I'll start to blending up baddies.

-naysen

I am sure I had seen a product in dry form that lasted 5 years. (assuming my memory hasn't failed me yet again). Let me do some investigating and get back to you. Could be either a different strain or a different manufacturer.

[Redbaron]

OK Naysen,
I found the long lasting powdered form but it is in huge quantities for commercial plantations.

I did find a smaller version for home use both wet and dry.

BOTANIGARD® 22WP and Mycotrol® O
Mycoinsecticides

The interesting thing was this though.......Something I hadn't thought about, but makes sense. Apparently one recommended way the large commercial plantation size product is used is to mix it into a compost pile and let it spread there, then when you spread the compost around the plants as a top dressing it keeps pests at a manageable level.

It doesn't say anything about that in the "grow in your own backyard" home use product. There may be differences because there are hundreds of strains. But I would suspect it might work? That may be a possible long term solution to experiment with?

I do know that for me at least I always take a shovel full of dirt and a shovel full of old compost to start my new compost. With some luck..who knows? You maybe can get at least some benefit long term that way?

As Chris pointed out earlier. Evolution happens. One day maybe a thrip might evolve resistance. Of course maybe the fungus may evolve to stay effective too! So who knows? Worth a try though.

I go by the theory that biological controls in a healthy environment will in the long run tend to create a balance that doesn't completely eliminate a pest, but will prevent it from reaching plague proportions that completely destroy a crop.

[z_willus_d]

Hi Scott, I like that compost pile inoculation idea. I keep worms (vermiculture) for compost, have a small outdoor mainly carbon-based pile, and also a pile of slowly reducing horse manure in the backyard. If I could find a product for ~$50 and spread it over 2 years, I might try it out. Like I said, I had a real serious infestation of thrips last season. My garden sets next to a large dry field (hillside). If I were less lazy / more ambitious, I might clear out the hillside and try and make something of it. I don't see that happening by next season, so I want to be prepared for the thrip invasion. So far, this has been a much cooler winter than last, so I expect many pests will be less problematic for us in CA than they were last summer with its notably warm winter precursor.
Thanks,
Naysen