need some information about------

[peppero]

I know we have some pretty smart people here who are knowledgeable about what plants need in order to grow strong, thick stalks as opposed to spindly ones. Being primarily interested in this with respect to tomatoes and peppers i do not know whether i should add this or that and don't want to use the shotgun approach when i could use a rifle.

i have soil that has good tilth having been amended with composted cow manure, leaves as well as compost in general.

Any known proven suggestions?

jon

[Redbaron]

Sounds to me you are on the right track. The only suggestion I could possibly make is get a good high quality soil test.

[COMPOSTER]

Sun is real important. How many hours of sun does your planting area recieve?

Glenn

[peppero]

sun; SIX TO EIGHT MINIMUM.

jon

[peppero]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Sounds to me you are on the right track. The only suggestion I could possibly make is get a good high quality soil test.

thanks for the response. a soil test might help but it would not tell what was missing with respect to my request for specific information regarding strong stalks. in my present state of knowledge i would not know what was missing or too little of, if i did not know what was the requirements were. for an example if such and such was needed and i did not know what such and such was or how much was needed, then i would not know how to respond. if i knew exactly what was needed,then the soil test was reveal the deficiency. pleasedon't think i am being critical of your response, i am just trying to clearly identify the solution.

again, thanks for responding,

jon

[TightenUp]

i have learned that not all manure is equal. instead of always adding cow manure try to get your hands on some other sources.

i followed mels mix when filling my raised beds which is 1/3 peat, 1/3 vermiculite, 1/3 compost. the one caveat is that the compost should have at least 5 sources in it. i used as my 5 sources cow manure, chicken manure, rabbit manure, mushroom compost, worm castings and also leaf and grass clippings. last season i also added azomite.


i also started a new garden bed which got all the manures but no peat or vermiculite. the plants have stems double the thickness of my brother in law who lives down the block and is growing all i gave him that i started from seed

i must say i've never witnessed thicker stems and bushier plants in my life. i'm so happy i went through the trouble of sourcing out the manures. along with some cottonseed and alfalfa meal my plants are super happy

[COMPOSTER]

I know that this is not the answer your looking for but i'm going to say it anyway. Good sunny location (min 8hrs direct sun), fertile well draining soil with plenty of organic matter, reasonably neutral PH , proper watering routine and high quality non rootbound transplants to start with.

Glenn

[COMPOSTER]

Originally Posted by peppero

I know we have some pretty smart people here who are knowledgeable about what plants need in order to grow strong, thick stalks as opposed to spindly ones. Being primarily interested in this with respect to tomatoes and peppers i do not know whether i should add this or that and don't want to use the shotgun approach when i could use a rifle.

i have soil that has good tilth having been amended with composted cow manure, leaves as well as compost in general.

Any known proven suggestions?

jon

Where are you getting your composted manure and compost? How much are you using on what size area? Is this and the leaves all you ammend your soil with? Do you have an idea of whether your soil is acidic or alkaline?

Glenn

[amideutch]

It all starts at the seedling stage and goes from there. Ferts, lighting and giving the seedlings the "Cold Treatment' are all players.

Ami

[Got Worms?]

A soil test will tell you what your soil is deficient in, what your soil has too much of (toxicity), what your P. H. is and which nutrients are available or not available, due to your current P.H.
It will also give you recommendations on what to add, how much to add, and when to add it. This would be loading the rifle with the correct ammunition before firing.

[peppero]

thanks everybody for the thoughtful responses. one thing i have definitely learned is that even though i have gardened for over 40 years i sure do not have is all the answers: therefore i am always seeking.

here is some info about my situation:
ph=6.8 - 7
compost--usually from many materials
plenty of worm castings
depth of good soil--10 to16 inches
cow manure-- out of a barn where it is well mixed with dirt
well drained mulched soil
i also use liquid kelp, fish emulsion and some liquid 8-9-14
all raised beds

i submit that a soil test will not help unless i know what the minimum level for each nutrient is. in others words i need a reference standard. if the truth is otherwise i want to know.

jon

[habitat_gardener]

I make compost teas and I've been reading about using materials other than nettles and comfrey. Several sources suggest that adding horsetail (high silica content) strengthens stems. So I'd look into a source of biologically available silica.

The other thing that strengthens stems is wind. Brush the seedlings every time you walk past, or bump the stems.

Once the plants are in the ground and producing, I don't know if silica and wind will have as much of an effect.

One other thing comes to mind: if the plants are getting more fertilizer than they need, they may show fast, spindly growth.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by peppero

thanks everybody for the thoughtful responses. one thing i have definitely learned is that even though i have gardened for over 40 years i sure do not have is all the answers: therefore i am always seeking.

here is some info about my situation:
ph=6.8 - 7
compost--usually from many materials
plenty of worm castings
depth of good soil--10 to16 inches
cow manure-- out of a barn where it is well mixed with dirt
well drained mulched soil
i also use liquid kelp, fish emulsion and some liquid 8-9-14
all raised beds

i submit that a soil test will not help unless i know what the minimum level for each nutrient is. in others words i need a reference standard. if the truth is otherwise i want to know.

jon

First of all, Nitrogen requirement for tomatoes is modest. Nearly any organic fert that provides enough other nutrients is likely to provide more than enough Nitrogen. AND too much nitrogen usually results in fast foliage growth with few tomatoes. That's why most ferts for tomatoes have a much lower first number than the second (3 to 5 times less).

In a soil test you are looking for ~ 25 ppm Phosphorus, ~ 250 ppm Potassium, ~1.0 ppm Zinc, less than 5 ppm Boron (lower the better), Soluble salts also need to be low < 2 dS/m, 10% humus, pH is very interesting. Most people say 6.0-6.5 is optimum. However, when you use organic methods and are well on your way to reaching your goal of 10% humus or greater, the optimum is 5.6 pH.

After all that you need to look at your basic soil type to determine if your soil tends towards any trace mineral deficiencies. Various types of rock dust or green sand, fish or seaweed concentrates etc can solve that issue for you, if you have one. If your basic soil type is mineral rich, then simple rotation with deep rooted crops and covers good at scavenging is usually enough. For example: beets are great scavengers of magnesium.

Hope that helps.

[COMPOSTER]

Originally Posted by peppero

thanks everybody for the thoughtful responses. one thing i have definitely learned is that even though i have gardened for over 40 years i sure do not have is all the answers: therefore i am always seeking.

here is some info about my situation:
ph=6.8 - 7
compost--usually from many materials
plenty of worm castings
depth of good soil--10 to16 inches
cow manure-- out of a barn where it is well mixed with dirt
well drained mulched soil
i also use liquid kelp, fish emulsion and some liquid 8-9-14
all raised beds

i submit that a soil test will not help unless i know what the minimum level for each nutrient is. in others words i need a reference standard. if the truth is otherwise i want to know.

jon

Jon,

You say that you have been gardening a long time but are always seeking. Your experience and seeking seem tohave lead you to a lot of very productive soil improving methods. In fact, it sounds as if you have a soil that a lot of folks would be envious to have. Are your plants more spindly this year than they have been in the past or have you always felt they were not as thick as you would like them to be? Are you doing something different than you have done in the past? Where do you get your plants from? Has that changed? Do you keep a journal so you can track changes, weather, varieties, dates, ect? Is something different?

I'm sorry to ask so many questions and offer so few suggestions but unless I missed something, you never actually said you were having a problem with spindly plants and if this was a recent problem or an ongoing one.

Glenn

[peppero]

Originally Posted by COMPOSTER

Jon,

You say that you have been gardening a long time but are always seeking. Your experience and seeking seem tohave lead you to a lot of very productive soil improving methods. In fact, it sounds as if you have a soil that a lot of folks would be envious to have. Are your plants more spindly this year than they have been in the past or have you always felt they were not as thick as you would like them to be? Are you doing something different than you have done in the past? Where do you get your plants from? Has that changed? Do you keep a journal so you can track changes, weather, varieties, dates, ect? Is something different?

I'm sorry to ask so many questions and offer so few suggestions but unless I missed something, you never actually said you were having a problem with spindly plants and if this was a recent problem or an ongoing one.

Glenn

Glenn i want to thank you and redbaron for not giving up on me.

i have been sliding toward this problem of spindliness over a period of years.
as a result i have experimented with many types of tomato and pepper varieties as well as locations. i also grow the majority of my plants as well as buying some others. this year i grew some semidwarf varieties and they have shown some decent stalks in comparison but, i expected that.

Redbaron i want to thank you for your last post regarding a soil test. i believe it addresses my need in detail about what information it provides.

thanks again to everyone for responding.

jon