Black Mariannas Peace.

[michael johnson]

For a couple of years now I have saved a few seeds of a Black Marrianas Peace, and wondering if or not to grow them again this year, I was not all that impressed by them the first time, as they were little different to the normal variety-other than being a very dusky greeny black with a hint of violet or purple here and there, so I hardly bothered with them until the very last few tomatoes hanging on the vine, and the frost almost got them too.

But i thought I may as well save a few seeds from one tomato for future use, so I eventualy ended up with a dozen or so seeds put by.

The only thing about it that I like was that it was slightly more productive and had more tomatoes on the vine later on in the season-but just as large as the original. but taste was basicly the same-slightly less sweet.

I might decide to give them another try this season-just for the novelty value, but probably wont eat many

[carolyn137]

But i thought I may as well save a few seeds from one tomato for future use, so I eventualy ended up with a dozen or so seeds put by.


If this black MP was the result of an accidental cross between MP and an unknown black and you've saved the seeds from one fruit, do you plan to dehybridize what you have so you know that you have something genetically stable?

Black Brandywine was the result of a similar type of cross and was released before it was genetically stable and some folks are still getting two plant and fruit types.

(For a couple of years now I have saved a few seeds of a Black Marrianas Peace, and wondering if or not to grow )

Or are you saying that you've planted the same seeds for a few years and see absolutely no gene segregation at all? It usually takes quite a few plants to see gene segregation. If this were a typical X pollination leading to a hybrid I wouldn't expect to see something genetically stable until dehybridization was done and it usually takes quite a few years to get something stable, selecting out at each generation from the other plant/fruit types that would normally be seen.

Or, are you saying that someone sent you the seeds for what is called Black MP and it already was dehybridized and genetically a stable OP?

Just trying to clarify the situation.

[michael johnson]

No- what actualy happened was, I bought the original seed from a UK seed house as normal Marrianas Peace, then the first year I grew out about half a dozen plants and planted them all in the garden,

Side by side you couldnt tell them apart-until ripening time, size,shape, leaf form etc, were all identical, upon ripening -two of the plants produced this dark dusky colour with a sort of greenish black top laced with violet to purple shades further down the tomato, at first I was quite excited by the new colour-which later turned to not bothering with it once I had tasted it, and just let them hang on the vine until the frosts, I didn't like the taste much- very ordinary, just average tomatoey flavor , nothing special.

Eventually I decided to save just a few seeds from one tomato, about a dozen or so. in case I decided to ever grow them again.,

I didnt grow them anymore after that for two years until now. at the moment I am trying to decide if or not to give them another go- I might try a couple of plants, but if they have that same mediocre taste as last time-I shall ditch them and not bother with them anymore after that- save for perhaps storing a few seeds for some time in the future.

[carolyn137]

(I didnt grow them anymore after that for two years until now. at the moment I am trying to decide if or not to give them another go- I might try a couple of plants, but if they have that same mediocre taste as last time-I shall ditch them and not bother with them anymore after that- save for perhaps storing a few seeds for some time in the future.)

OK, thanks for the clarification.

If those black ones appeared in a commercial pack of MP you don't know if they were stray seeds or not. In other words they could well be an already named black variety. This would not be unusual and was the source, for instance, of Orange Strawberry, which was a seed in a commercial pack of the variety Pineapple. So stray seeds do happen, says Carolyn as she checks the length of her fingernails as she packs seeds for her seed offer here at Tville.

Or, they could be a hybrid from a natural cross depending on the source of seeds that that commercial firm used.

So, if you plant out at least 5, much more is better, of those seeds you should get some indication of OP stability, meaning it was stray stable seeds from the get go, or if you see different plants and fruits, that would indicate that what you started out with from that pack was a hybrid.

And then if the black appears again, and you like what you see and taste, b/c genes would have started to segregate, then select seeds from those fruits, resow, and keep doing it until you have a genetically stabilized OP. it should take about 3-7 years to get it stable.

[Suze]

Michael, was this dark fruited plant potato leaf (like Marianna's Peace is) or reg leaf?

This might be helpful in figuring out if you had a cross or just a stray seed as a result of mispackaging.

As far as I know (but I might be mistaken), there really aren't any dark, med/large fruited, PL, and indet varieties besides Gary O' Sena. And PL foliage is a dominant trait, so if there was a cross between MP and some dark variety, the foliage on that F1 would be PL.

[carolyn137]

(And PL foliage is a dominant trait, so if there was a cross between MP and some dark variety, the foliage on that F1 would be PL.)

Suze, I'm sure you meant to say that PL is a recessive trait as in:

PP=homozygous dominant, RL
Pp=heterzygous dominant, RL
pp=homozygous recessive, PL

So if MP crossed with another PL the F1 hybrid would be PL.

If MP crossed with an heterozygous RL as in Pp X pp then there's still a 50% chance that an F1 that shows up could be PL. And if MP crossed with a PP then all the offspring would be Pp and RL. But it's my understanding that most RL's are homozygous and not heterozygous.

And I should check this as well, but I think I remember that indet is dominant to det.

Planting out enough plants should give some indication of a stray seed possibiity ( OP stability and all plants identical) vs gene segregation ( with different plants and fruits) suggesting it was a cross and the seeds sown were hybrid.

Yeah, I know, we're talking genetics when Michael says it wasn't a very good tasting fruit anyway. But you never know what might appear, if it's a cross, in terms of some offspring that might still be on the blackish side and with better taste.

[michael johnson]

The plants in question were true potato leaf, in fact I couldnt tell the difference between the two varieties side by side-they were just about indentical- right up until the ripening stage-only then could you see a marked difference between the two-in colour, except that the black version had a few more tomatoes on the bottom two trusses than the original, perhaps a couple more per truss, but looking at the fruit from any angle they were exactly the same shape & size, on average.

The only other difference that I observed, was that the black version took longer to go down than the original during those first few autumn frosts, and the tomatoes hung on the vine a lot longer without dropping off ( perhaps another ten days or so). which seems to indicate a slightly better resistance to frost and keeping quality.

It might have been a stray few seeds, or an already named variety,or an accidental cross-but the thing I found strange was the fact that it was identical in every way to the original for most of its growth period, if it had been either of the three former mentioned possibilities I would have expected a more marked difference in either leaf form or fruit form, size,shape etc, but it wasnt, therefore it will remain a mystery to me- until I plant a few out this coming season and see what the results are-if I can find the room ?

I would have planted some last season too, but it was the taste that put me off as it was only average taste, and I had a lot more tastier tomatoes to plant instead but I suppose I shall have to satisfy my curiosity and plant a few this season as well- but I probably wont eat many if they are the same as last time, more for the novelty value than anything else.

As usually I only tend to grow tomatoes that have an intense sweet strong tomato taste- ( if I can find any ? ) as I am always on the search and lookout for any new varieties that can improve on that fact.