Saving seeds question

[hornstrider]

I am growing all heirloom varieties this year. I have grown more, and more heirloom's as the year's go by, but I have only savec seeds form Indian Stripe, and Amish Paste. The seeds from my Indian Stripe tomato's have done well for me dispite the fact I was not too picky about the size of the tomato I was saving seeds from. Indian Stripe have always done really for me, as well as Cherokee Purple. I plan to save seeds from all of my varieties this year. Should I save seeds from the biggest tomato, or the most productive plant? What criteria should I base my seed saving on?

[Chucker]

I save seeds from all my plants, but I keep them separate. For example, last year, I grew two black cherry plants. One had larger fruit than the other, which I liked better, so I saved seeds from both, kept them in separate vials, and made a note on the one that it was the bigger of the two. This year I'm growing only the larger one, but maybe I will grow the others some time.

The size of a particular tomato on a plant shouldn't matter, the genetics are all the same for all tomatoes on a given plant. I saw a youtube video from Tom Wagner where her tells which tomatoes have a higher chance of cross-pollination based on looks, I will try to find that again, it was very interesting.

Edit: Found the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ObHwm9cYII
And thanks Tom, I have learned tons from the knowledge you share.

[hornstrider]

Thanks Chucker.........I did not consider cross-pollination.........

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Chucker

I save seeds from all my plants, but I keep them separate. For example, last year, I grew two black cherry plants. One had larger fruit than the other, which I liked better, so I saved seeds from both, kept them in separate vials, and made a note on the one that it was the bigger of the two. This year I'm growing only the larger one, but maybe I will grow the others some time.

The size of a particular tomato on a plant shouldn't matter, the genetics are all the same for all tomatoes on a given plant. I saw a youtube video from Tom Wagner where her tells which tomatoes have a higher chance of cross-pollination based on looks, I will try to find that again, it was very interesting.

Edit: Found the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ObHwm9cYII
And thanks Tom, I have learned tons from the knowledge you share.

I watched the video.

And a bit of information. I know Tom very well, he first called me in 1990, I won't go through the intervening years but we first met in 2000 when I was asked to do an heirloom presentation at the Hortus Nursery in Pasadena and TOm drove down form Bakersfield where he was at the time, and sat next to me at the table where I was autographing my book and answering questions about the varieties being offerred there as plants.

We went out to dinner and it was non-stop tomato chat the whole time.

Tom's video is from the perspective of a tomato breeder, not a home grower. In the beginning all he needed to say is that most self pollenization occurs as the style move upwards and makes contact with the pollen bearing anthers before the blossom ever opens.

But he makes many crosses each year, does what some would call single seed descent and saves seeds usually from just one fruit and usesTSP to get at those seeds.And that's why you saw him saying hewould usethis or that fruit for seeds, b'c he uses just one fruit.

So I'm going to make some suggestions for the home grower as to saving seeds.

Never save seeds from one fruit on a plant, always several of all sizes. Better still is to save seeds from many fruits on two plants of the same variety, etc.

What that does is to cut down on the possibiity of getting X pollinated seeds. I once had about 2,000 seeds of a variety and it took distributing seeds for maybe 1000 seeds before a X pollinated one showed up.

The seed purity needed is dependent on what one plans to do with the seeds, as just for home use, or trading/sharing with others, or SSE listing a variety, etc.

Very few go to the trouble of bagging blossoms or growing varieties in isolation, but if that's something that interests you I can dig out some good links when I have time.

Hope that helps,

Carolyn

[hornstrider]

Thank you Carolyn.......any help would be appreciated.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by hornstrider

Thank you Carolyn.......any help would be appreciated.

This is THE best link I know of about how to prevent X pollination.

http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/t...852004159.html

And this is an excellent article written by Dr. Jeff MCCormack when he owned SESE:

http://www.southernexposure.com/isol...es-ezp-35.html

Where he discusses the many variables and factors involved with NCP (natural cross pollination). I think his isolation distances are far too conservative for a practical home gardener use, but then he was commercial.

Again, it depends on the degree of seed purity you feel you to need for which purposes. I never bagged blossoms and never used isolation distances and told you above about that.

My regular four seed producers for my seed offer here, with the exception of one, don't bag blossoms either/ And of those who send me seeds from far and wide for my seed offer don't mention bagging blossoms either

So you have to weigh the degree of seed purity needed against the extra time it takes to bag blossoms,etc.

Carolyn

[hornstrider]

Thank you for the info Carolyn.........I will read and learn. Like I said I have only saved seeds with any success are Indian Stripe, and they were harvested in the fall when I only had a few varieties planted........and the IS were kinda' off buy themselves.

[hornstrider]

I did not bag my flowers last fall when I saved seeds from Amish Paste, Indian Stripe, and C Special Tex. I have two plants in the ground that I thought came from my saved AP seed, and these plants are clearly not AP. I must have mis-labeled my saved seeds. They look like Indian Stripe, or C Special Tex. Both are beautiful plants loaded w/ fruit almost ready to pick. Since I did not bag my flowers what is the chance these plants are true IS, or C Special Tex?.......I suppose I will know after I taste the fruit.

[hornstrider]

I suppose I will answer my own question..........this is not an Indian Stripe. Lesson learned. This plant was actually thought to be an Indian Stripe not the plants mentioned above. I planted four plants that I grew from my saved IS seed that were labeled IS. If I want to save seeds I will bag my flowers....I hope they taste good...........I've got lots of them.

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps483c323e.jpg

[DonnaMarieNJ]

Carolyn, when you say "Never save seeds from one fruit on a plant, always several of all sizes. Better still is to save seeds from many fruits on two plants of the same variety, etc.," do you ferment each fruit from each plant in separate cups? Meaning, if I pick two fruit from one plant, do they go into separate cups? Same question if I pick 3, for instance Cherokee Purple, from two different plants, all three maters in separate cups? Or is it one fruit per cup, never mixing even if from the same plant?

Donna

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by DonnaMarieNJ

Carolyn, when you say "Never save seeds from one fruit on a plant, always several of all sizes. Better still is to save seeds from many fruits on two plants of the same variety, etc.," do you ferment each fruit from each plant in separate cups? Meaning, if I pick two fruit from one plant, do they go into separate cups? Same question if I pick 3, for instance Cherokee Purple, from two different plants, all three maters in separate cups? Or is it one fruit per cup, never mixing even if from the same plant?

Donna

Donna, if I had three plants out of the same varey I'd pick fruits, large and small from each of the plants, and ferment ALL of them at the same time. I did my fermentations in one pint clear deli containers, and if I had to use 2 or three for that one picking, I would.

Then repeat for a second picking, etc.

At the time I was listing many hundreds of varieties in the SSE Yearbooks so needed lots of seeds;

But even here at home when I was still able to ferment my own seeds I never, but never, saved seeds from just one fruit for all the reasons I mentioned above in an earlier post in this thread.

Carolyn

[feldon30]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Donna, if I had three plants out of the same varey I'd pick fruits, large and small from each of the plants, and ferment ALL of them at the same time. I did my fermentations in one pint clear deli containers, and if I had to use 2 or three for that one picking, I would.

Then repeat for a second picking, etc.

At the time I was listing many hundreds of varieties in the SSE Yearbooks so needed lots of seeds;

But even here at home when I was still able to ferment my own seeds I never, but never, saved seeds from just one fruit for all the reasons I mentioned above in an earlier post in this thread.

Carolyn

What does collecting seeds from all these different fruit do? Decrease the chance that you'll sow a cross-pollinated seed?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by feldon30

What does collecting seeds from all these different fruit do? Decrease the chance that you'll sow a cross-pollinated seed?

Yes, saving seeds from many different fruits dilutes out any X pollnated seeds that might be present. I grew so many plants and varieties for many years that it was impossible to bag blossoms or to use isolation.

Fact is, my natural croosing percentage was only about 5% which means that on average 5/100 different varieties grown might have fruits with X pollinated seeds.

That's for where I live and the link I put up in a post above by Jeff McCormack discusses many varaibles as they relate to NCP, natural cross pollination.

The other reason I always tried to grow more than one plant of a variety is b'c there's minor genetic variability within a specific variety and is there for the eyes to see but I never knew about that, really, until Keith M brought it up one time.

Carolyn