Rock Dust?

[Lindalana]

Just applied two varied kinds of rock dust to the soil. Will be using azomite adding to potting holes when planted. I consider myself biological gardener. I think definition of organic gardener is too political and does not answer who I am. I care about having soil full of living things, which will provide my garden with all nutrients plants need.

[Worth1]

I'm reading right along here and I'm not confused.
I have always known there were two different definitions.
From what I have read the term organic came for the chemistry aspect of it first in the early 1800's.
The term organic for farming has been around for some time too but I didn't start to see it kick in really hard until after the hippie back to nature movement in the 70's.
Then in the 80's I started to see stores pop up in Austin Texas selling over priced bug bitten produce.
The yuppies and hippies with more money than they had sense went to them in hoards in their BMW's.
While eating their bug bitten produce they were preaching to me about how much healthier it was with a can of raid kills all bug spray in one hand and an organic orange in the other.
I would look at the can of Raid and tell them at least you got the organic spray.
They would say, "what, it isn't organic".
I would say yes it is look up what is in it if it was derived from carbon compounds it is organic.
Things have changed for the good for organic farming it has just taken awhile.

Too me being friendly to nature and organic isn't going to whole foods and sticking your nose up at everyone else.
It is a life style, a life style you have to take upon your own to have.
One you have to think about every time you do something.'
Drive your car run your electricity or anything.
Even kill that helpless little spider in your garden.
Right now the war is on my side, 100 lizards many frogs and toads and a million spiders.
One stink bug and one dead grass hopper.
I go out at night with a flashlight and hunt for and kill snails and slugs .
I bet the neighbors think I am crazy.

I have come to the conclusion that rock dust and much of this other stuff is best served in really poor soil or a soil less container.

Worth

[Stvrob]

This whole thread misses the obvious question, what kind of rock are you talking about? Chemical weathering of many rocks is quite acidic, likely to the point of heavy metal toxicity, I cant imagine anyone wanting powdered graphite schist in their garden. Others are quite basic like marble or limestone dust. I assume for most people they would want something relatively inert, as a filler.

Just remember, residual soils over bedrock take thousands or tens of thousands of years to develop, the very first part of the reaction is not necessarily something intrinsically good for your garden. Think mine tailings.

[RayR]

Originally Posted by Worth1

.
I go out at night with a flashlight and hunt for and kill snails and slugs .
I bet the neighbors think I am crazy.

I have come to the conclusion that rock dust and much of this other stuff is best served in really poor soil or a soil less container.

Worth

They might think you're crazy if you are out in the yard hunting snails and slugs with a shotgun. Just tell your neighbors that you think you saw a Bigfoot in the yard.
I think you're right about poor soils and soil-less containers but there is plenty of evidence that mineral rich rock powders do increase microbial activity in soils. Since bacteria and fungi are greatly responsible for breaking down rock minerals in soils, it makes sense.

Originally Posted by Stvrob

This whole thread misses the obvious question, what kind of rock are you talking about? Chemical weathering of many rocks is quite acidic, likely to the point of heavy metal toxicity, I cant imagine anyone wanting powdered graphite schist in their garden. Others are quite basic like marble or limestone dust. I assume for most people they would want something relatively inert, as a filler.

Just remember, residual soils over bedrock take thousands or tens of thousands of years to develop, the very first part of the reaction is not necessarily something intrinsically good for your garden. Think mine tailings.

Nobody is talking about adding graphite, coal or mine tailings. Trace amounts of heavy metals are present in all natural soils and rocks. That doesn't mean they are anywhere near toxic levels, most are bound up in other compounds in the humic fraction anyway. Most people are using rock powders from glacial rock deposits or weathered volcanic ash deposits 10's of millions of years old like Azomite from Utah. As far a rock powders from quarries, I don't know. I guess it depends on the mineral analysis of the rock. All the quarries around my area are limestone quarries. I'd be hesitant to use that in my garden soils, don't really need to up the PH at all.

[Stvrob]

Originally Posted by RayR

They might think you're crazy if you are out in the yard hunting snails and slugs with a shotgun. Just tell your neighbors that you think you saw a Bigfoot in the yard.
I think you're right about poor soils and soil-less containers but there is plenty of evidence that mineral rich rock powders do increase microbial activity in soils. Since bacteria and fungi are greatly responsible for breaking down rock minerals in soils, it makes sense.




Nobody is talking about adding graphite, coal or mine tailings. Trace amounts of heavy metals are present in all natural soils and rocks. That doesn't mean they are anywhere near toxic levels, most are bound up in other compounds in the humic fraction anyway. Most people are using rock powders from glacial rock deposits or weathered volcanic ash deposits 10's of millions of years old like Azomite from Utah. As far a rock powders from quarries, I don't know. I guess it depends on the mineral analysis of the rock. All the quarries around my area are limestone quarries. I'd be hesitant to use that in my garden soils, don't really need to up the PH at all.

It doesnt matter how old the rock is, what matters is how long it has been exposed to the atmosphere. In the case of rock dust, that will be essentially time zero, its first contact. If the reaction is acidic, there will be a flush of heavy metals, it does not have to be an ore for that to be true. There are many examples of extremely unfertile residual soils over various kinds of bedrock, and they have already had thousands of years to develop and improve.
Arsenic, antimony, copper, lead, these are all likely trace metals, and all likely to be the first realeased in an acidic reaction. And Aluminum is always found as a major constituent, and quite toxic at low pH. Mine tailings are not dangerous because they were part of an ore per se, but because it is fresh rock, ground to a powder, and exposed to the elements. Over thousands of years, chemical reactions will transform them to some kind of soil, but its not going to be like a prairie soil ever.

Azomite is a volcanic tuff, its reaction will be alkaline, so the heavy metals wouldnt be mobile. Its an example of a formation that has already been identified as being a useful addition to improve fertility. My comment is about people showing up at the local quarry and hauling off any old rock dust without even knowing what kind of rock it is. What makes you so sure no one is bringing a truckload of dust from graphite schist, or slate, or shale from the quarry and putting it into their garden?

[drew51]

As far as heavy metals, i guess nobody watched the videos I posted. Also for how useful it is (Not!). Not to mention the huge environemtal damage mining it causes. Of course some think there is no money to be made here, now that is funny! After watching the vidoes I have come to the conclusion that using rock dust is as useful as using Epsom Salts. Is that organic? Is magnesium sulfate organic? What about Ammoniun sulfate? See why I'm confused? OK so Epsom salts can be mined. So the man made form is not organic? So does sulfur have to be the mined form too? What about copper? As the form used as a fungicide is copper hydroxide or copper sulfate, I'm pretty sure that is not mined. Is sulfate organic but hydroxide not? What about the man made inorganic hydrogen peroxide?
I guess the use of inorganic chemicals in organic farming is too oxymoronic for me to understand. Is copper in still? or is it out? Glad you guys get it, but I'm totally lost.
I'm all for using the least harmful method first but have no problems going to big guns when needed. I have seen videos posted of organic orchards with a 15% production, now that is crazy!

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Stvrob

Mine tailings are not dangerous because they were part of an ore per se, but because it is fresh rock, ground to a powder, and exposed to the elements. Over thousands of years, chemical reactions will transform them to some kind of soil, but its not going to be like a prairie soil ever.

You sure about that?
Convincing evidence

Originally Posted by drew51

As far as heavy metals, i guess nobody watched the videos I posted. Also for how useful it is (Not!).

Not only have I seen those videos, I have discussed them with the owners of the channels months ago. We all follow and exchange ideas between each other and have for a while. We tend to agree that in general terms rock dust is fairly useless in most outside gardening situations, but probably could be of benefit for containers or soilless raised beds. That outcome predicted if you had read the works of the likes of Dr. Elaine Ingham or Dr. Kristine Nichols.

[gvozdika]

Drew, I did take time to watch all three videos. In the first video, did he say what rock dust he used? It was just one sample, would not convince me. In the second video, the person said that collards green and kale tasted better with rock dust. These are plants that don't relay on fungi to get nutrients from soil. So, for his tomato test, the question is what is his soil like? In the third video, the person took all the trouble testing samples but didn't say what they were.
About the environmental damage, I live on an extinct volcano, there are boulders, rocks everywhere. I use that basalt to make rock dust.

[Stvrob]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

You sure about that?
Convincing evidence

That is very interesting, but what does it have to do with what I said?

[Stvrob]

Originally Posted by drew51

As far as heavy metals, i guess nobody watched the videos I posted. Also for how useful it is (Not!). Not to mention the huge environemtal damage mining it causes. Of course some think there is no money to be made here, now that is funny! After watching the vidoes I have come to the conclusion that using rock dust is as useful as using Epsom Salts. Is that organic? Is magnesium sulfate organic? What about Ammoniun sulfate? See why I'm confused? OK so Epsom salts can be mined. So the man made form is not organic? So does sulfur have to be the mined form too? What about copper? As the form used as a fungicide is copper hydroxide or copper sulfate, I'm pretty sure that is not mined. Is sulfate organic but hydroxide not? What about the man made inorganic hydrogen peroxide?
I guess the use of inorganic chemicals in organic farming is too oxymoronic for me to understand. Is copper in still? or is it out? Glad you guys get it, but I'm totally lost.
I'm all for using the least harmful method first but have no problems going to big guns when needed. I have seen videos posted of organic orchards with a 15% production, now that is crazy!

I watched them. I found it rather inconclusive because it was just refering to "rock dust". In one video he said he used azomite, but it wasnt clear if all of his tests used azomite.

"Rock dust" seems to be a lazy term to descibe a substance with a huge range of properties.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Stvrob

That is very interesting, but what does it have to do with what I said?

Once you get the grasses to start growing, the prairie biome itself will convert those mine tailings to soil pretty rapidly. I showed that to let people know it can be done...even if all you have is 100% sterile mine tailings in the worst possible conditions. Kind of a "proof of concept" using the worst case scenario.

Compared to that, our gardens should be a piece of cake.

[Stvrob]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Once you get the grasses to start growing, the prairie biome itself with convert those mine tailings to soil pretty rapidly. I showed that to let people know it can be done...even if all you have is 100% sterile mine tailings in the worst possible conditions. Kind of a "proof of concept" using the worst case scenario.

Compared to that, our gardens should be a piece of cake.

I applaud the effort of their remediation strategy, but that land won't develop a prarie soil for thousands of years if ever. That is not to say it won't work, with mine tailings almost any kindnof soil development is better than nothing.
In any case, I could not justify bringing strange rock dust of unknown origin into the garden without a very clear idea about what I was trying to achieve and how it was going to help me achieve it.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Stvrob

I applaud the effort of their remediation strategy, but that land won't develop a prarie soil for thousands of years if ever. That is not to say it won't work, with mine tailings almost any kindnof soil development is better than nothing.
In any case, I could not justify bringing strange rock dust of unknown origin into the garden without a very clear idea about what I was trying to achieve and how it was going to help me achieve it.

We agree about caution needed in using rock dust. Like most things it is not always beneficial, and not always bad either. But in general terms in most soils not needed with a bigger potential down side than up side.

The creating soil thing? I guess we will simply need to agree to disagree there. It doesn't take 1,000s of years with human intervention. Without human intervention...sure..probably take at least that long in most cases. But with proper management using the most modern advances in agricultural science.....it can happen very rapidly.

Remember there are three main parts of soil.
The mineral base which can be sand silt or clay. (usually best is a mix of all 3)
The humus and other non living organic matter.
The living biological "soil food web"

If any one of those three are in deficit, then amending with what is lacking will help. If you pay close attention to those getting benefits from rock dust, you'll generally find they are container gardeners using soilless mixes, or people with quite high raised beds ... again with mostly organic matter and little mineral base.

[Stvrob]

Dont get me wrong, I don't doubt the possibility that the mine tailing restoration project has potential, I just uave my doubts that it will ever establish a prairie soil. I am thinking of a soil with a 30"+ organic horizon and of the type most gardeners would die for, like south central illinois or Eastern Iowa. That being said, I do understand that Buffalo and other large grazing animals were probably essential in their formation in the first place. But Buffalo also roamed in areas without prairie soils so that is not the only factor.

And that reminds me of another interesting project in Northeast Russia:

http://www.pleistocenepark.ru/en/

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Stvrob

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt the possibility that the mine tailing restoration project has potential, I just have my doubts that it will ever establish a prairie soil. I am thinking of a soil with a 30"+ organic horizon and of the type most gardeners would die for, like south central illinois or Eastern Iowa. That being said, I do understand that Buffalo and other large grazing animals were probably essential in their formation in the first place. But Buffalo also roamed in areas without prairie soils so that is not the only factor.

And that reminds me of another interesting project in Northeast Russia:

http://www.pleistocenepark.ru/en/

There is not enough annual rainfall to create a soil like was found in S. Illinois. That's the tallgrass prairie. But it certainly could become a shortgrass prairie soil pretty rapidly. In fact it has already mostly for all intents and purposes been restored to a functioning biome. That article is a bit old. Also it is too small an area to stand alone. So until vast areas and whole regions are restored, it will always be vulnerable to setbacks. Got to start somewhere though, and that area is so dry, the option to reforest isn't available (at least for now).

Thanks for the Russian project link. I think I'll spend some time researching that for sure.

Back to topic: IMHO Rock dust can be a good amendment if it is specifically addressing a known deficiency. Otherwise it is a waste of a gardener's money.