What Would be the Ideal Micro?

[Hatgirl]

Learning about the sun dwarf gene explains why my greenhouse Tiny Tims were 1.5ft and the house ones were 4ft

[BlackBear]

My Micro Tom ....Picks ...are still
Venus, Rejina Red, Rejina Yellow , Hahms gelbe, .....Like the Red dwarf as well

also a bit larger "Micro " Yellow Pygmy. Ditmarsher is interesting to look at as well.

In the seedling emergence "Horse race " ....I always find Venus and Rejina Yellow to "pop " up first .

Geese we still have a light new dusting of snow on the ground "Micro power" is most welcome in the "Pre" growing season .

[Hatgirl]

Found out a few more specifics about the sun dwarf gene, for anyone interested (first page, second page)

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by ddsack

Dan, last fall, I trimmed back and brought into the house some of the very productive microdwarfs that were a nice compact size grown outdoors last summer. Once in the house, all they got was daylight from a south bay window. And we had many grey days without sun, and of course the shorter day length of winter. No doubt they would have done better with some artificial light to supplement. All the micro's developed very long internodes, and grew up around 24" and climbing - much taller than when outside. I had too much trouble fighting mildew, so ended up tossing them just before New Years. I believe lack of enough natural bright sun will affect any tomato plant into becoming unnaturally lanky. I experienced this with indoor plants from the Dwarf Project in previous years too.

I gave a couple of the fall outdoor micros to my sister, and she had the same result, even though she has a nice big sun room. The good news was that she continued to get a few ripening fruit and it was setting more blossoms. But hers had trouble with mildew also, so was tossed after the last ripe tomatoes were picked.

Thanks for the information. That confirms (not proof, but anecdotal) the theory that we've discussed about them stretching out more inside. It makes me wonder about these I am selecting from that are only being grown inside under lights. What will those that stay under 10" inside do out in the sun?

Those that have disappointed me this winter are those I'm growing inside from selections I made outside last summer. I think it is likely that the fact that they will stretch out more inside is probably something that most will manifest. It won't necessarily mean that they the must have the sun dwarf gene if they stay smaller outside. However, those that do have the gene will probably show it much more dramatically.

It will be fun to learn.

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by Hatgirl

Found out a few more specifics about the sun dwarf gene, for anyone interested (first page, second page)

Thanks for the information.

[dfollett]

An F2 from a cross with Silvery Fir Tree. Eleven inches in height - very fine leaved - quite fine stemmed (but needed less support than I thought it would given the size of the fruits) - very strong flavor - tart, but not as tart as SFT.

Encouraging.

[dfollett]

An F3 from a cross with Lollipop. These are now starting to blush at this height. So far, it hasn't sent up a side-shoot to dash my hopes of finding one that stays this small. I wish they were yellow, but it looks like they will be red.

[KarenO]

Been a while since I updated. So turns out that if the four I grew, even the little brother are all dwarf but not micro. 3 of 4 are indeterminate at about 3 feet tall and one is determinate I believe at around 20". Setting clusters of " cherries and the first to ripen are these, seed sown Dec2 grown indoors without supplemental light once they got too tall. I am sure that they would be both shorter and earlier grown outdoors in good conditions. Plants are healthy lightly rugosa potato leaf.
The best part, they have a very good flavour! I also think this would be even better outdoors but considering their upbringing I think quite excellent.
I can send seed if you wish. Not micro but certainly a really good dwarf black cherry

[akgardengirl]

Those look great Karen. It looks like I may have a micro multiflora from your 53X-F3-2 line Dan. The buds just appeared and looks like 6 in a cluster on top of the plant which is very short. I will take a photo in about week when the buds show up better. I planted Aztek from Cole Robbie as a comparison since it is a know micro-multiflora. They are loaded with the cutest little yellow blooms now.

[BlackBear]

geese ....Fantastic interesting looking "werk " ! ....all of you .

Keep up the explorations ...you "micro explorers"

[dfollett]

Originally Posted by KarenO

...

The best part, they have a very good flavour! I also think this would be even better outdoors but considering their upbringing I think quite excellent.
I can send seed if you wish. Not micro but certainly a really good dwarf black cherry

Thanks, Karen, for growing it out - even though it outgrew your lights and the expectations I set for it. Yes, a few seeds would be appreciated. I wish it had stayed tiny like the F3 did, but... live and learn. Unless you intend to try to stabilize it as a dwarf black cherry, I have someone who would like to work on it. Is it OK if I have him contact you and make arrangements to send you an SASE (or whatever the equivalent is between Canada and the US is)?

For what it is worth, all of the extra slow, tiny stragglers I potted up either didn't thrive or eventually caught up to the norm (Most didn't thrive). I'll not be waiting for any of them in the future.

I have found several interesting plants this winter that remained tiny throughout their life cycle. By next fall, I'll have another generation on them and should be sure of their size potential. If you want something to watch grow next winter, let me know and you can pick from whatever options I have. So far, I have no blacks, but do have a red and a yellow and (maybe) an orange and a black/green striped. They will be at F5 (or F6) by fall.

I am going to grow them out indoors this summer rather than outside in the sun. I've come to the conclusion that if I am looking for something that thrives indoors under lights, I don't want to mislead myself again by selecting based on how they do outside under full sun.

[dfollett]

Karen - and anyone else who might know.....,

I've been puzzling over something recently, and since you're an expert, I'll ask you...

What I have noticed is purely anecdotal, as I have done no scientific or controlled experiments. However, it seems to me that I have significantly more leaf problems on plants with larger, more rugose, heavier leaves (especially PL) than I do with their finer leaved cousins.

My original assumption was that the larger leaved plants should do better in a low-light condition because the larger leaves would absorb more light - or at least have the ability to take in more light than those with the finer/smaller leaves. I figured that larger leaves would give that plant an advantage. However, I seem to have significantly more problems with bottom leaves shriveling up and dying on those that have 'larger/denser' leaves than the finer leaved ones.

In reasoning through how to ask the question, I came up with something that may hold the answer the question for me. Does each leaf need direct light to stay healthy?

If that is the case, then perhaps the denser leaf covering above shades the lower leaves so thoroughly that they die from lack of light. Outdoors there would be much more reflected ambient light reaching all the leaves - and the daily passage of the sun across the sky would allow direct sunlight to reach nearly every leaf on the plant at one time or another. Indoors, the light never changes position and the dense leaves effectively permanently shade their lower brothers (or sisters).

Perhaps, on the plants with the finer leaves, the stationary light above is still able to penetrate and reach the lower leaves - at least enough so that they remain healthier. I have some extra-fine leaf micros that seem to be doing much better overall as a group than those with the more dense leaf structure. Their leaf structure is very much like Silvery Fir Tree (although there is no SFT in their parentage).

I certainly don't have a large enough sample size to be able to say anything definitively. However, after having reasoned my way through the question and then this theory, it kinda makes sense to me. (Sometimes I have to talk my way through something before I know what I think about it....)

Does any of that make sense? Or, should those with more leaf surface area be expected to do better under lights like I originally reasoned?

[KarenO]

I wouldn't call myself an expert, except maybe about my own projects certainly not at indoor micro growing but I do have some theories, again just theories.
I find that rugosa foliage has a lot of nooks and crannies and in my observations can be more prone to fungal disease than smooth RL or PL foliage. Leaves don't usually just dry up on their own, I think the shading of lower leaves, especially if in the slightest contact with damp potting media would contribute to some mold development quite easily. I find that the foliage can be very dense and would likely benefit from some light pruning especially around the bottom to improve airflow.
Like I said, just theories but anything touching the potting soil should come off in the same way you wouldn't let leaves touch soil even on a full sized plant
KarenO

[oakley]

Curious about that so i'm following.

6 of mine are still under 12 inches, from soil level in 1/2 gal pots. Some fruit.
The others did gain some height and still going, alive, in the 16-18 inch range...others had to go away once i started
my Spring starts.
All were side by side. Some tall ones are still in 4inch pots. Kept what i had room for.
Only one is staked. So much fruit i needed to hang on to it. Nothing ripe yet.
It has been such a dreary Winter. Zip in the sun dept. Usually i've got some things in the
greenhouse by now. Maybe Wednesday. The prime micros i'll keep inside and try to get
some more pics.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by dfollett

An F2 from a cross with Silvery Fir Tree. Eleven inches in height - very fine leaved - quite fine stemmed (but needed less support than I thought it would given the size of the fruits) - very strong flavor - tart, but not as tart as SFT.

Encouraging.

SILVERY FIR TREE, amazing.

I have two plants, just potted up a week ago. (sowed seeds 55 days ago ). Now they have fruits.
In addition to being so early it is also the only ornamental tomato plant that I know of. And if you don't mind slightly tangy taste, the fruits are pretty good too.