Define 'Dwarf'

[cdntomato]

This has been up for discussion before, but never really resolved for me.

Tree-type?
Rugose-leaved?
Both?
Dwarf in the name but has none of the above characteristics?
Under 4'?
Includes micro and tumbling types?

And just what is a 'pole-type' as used in descriptions by SSE HF?

Are there better ways of classifying 'shorties'?

Please weigh in on this subject.
Ta muchly.

Jennifer, who finds her dislike of pigeon-holing at odds with her need for clear, accurate data organization (rebellious O/C-type )

[carolyn137]

Jeenifer.

Well I remember the thread you started at GW on the same exact topic and it's my opinion that there will never be consensus since there is no one group or person who defines such things.

So for the time being I think I'll sit this one out and just read.

[cdntomato]

...there will never be consensus since there is no one group or person who defines such things...

And I would be comfortable with that: consensus that there is no consensus on the term's definition. In fact, that conclusion would be great so then the rebellious organizer in me can have free reign...8)

But I'll wait to hear what others opine first.

Jennifer

[carolyn137]

Keith,

I do think that when SSE itself is making a listing of something they call pole type they are using what the original description to them was, but the problem is that many of those so called pole types listed state that height is only in the 3-4 ft range, not what one would expect for a typical indeterminate.

Others listed as pole types seem to be indeterminates as requested from SSE, grown out and relisted with more data.

So I think at this point the only way for anyone to really know what they might be is to look for others who have done the growing out and relisted and provided more info or requesting them and doing direct observations.

[mdvpc]

I have a blurry line also between dwarves and real compacts-a dwarf is not a compact type-like Quarter Century is not a dwarf in my mind, but is New Big Dwarf? NBD is not much shorter in my containers than Quarter Century. Golden Dwarf Champion is a little bit smaller for me than NBD and surely Lime Green Salad is a dwarf. So is Tiny Tim, etc. And then you talk about Dwarf Stone and Dwarf Champion and Dwarf Champion 15 and Kootenai and Patio King and Kora and Scoresby Dwarf-and to me they are all properly put in the dwarf category. And one of my favorites, Citron Compact is not any taller than Scoresby or NBD, etc.

My own personal definition is that a dwarf is under about 3 feet tall in my containers. Taller than that and they are compact.

[cdntomato]

Thanks for chiming in, Michael. I seem to recall that neither you nor Keith posted on that GW thread. That may be why, in part, I felt the subject was left unresolved--in my head at least.

I shall move on now...
Ta muchly all!

Jennifer

[nctomatoman]

I tend to think of Dwarf varieties as those first described as "tree" tomatoes in early seed catalogs - thick, stout central stem, dark green, crinkly foliage. This is best represented as Dwarf Champion, Dwarf Stone, Golden Dwarf Champion, Lime Green Salad, Citron Compact- and Dwarf Recessive (rare potato leaf dwarf). To me, Victorian Dwarf looks more like a compact determinate - branches significantly from the base, regular leaf foliage - as does Taxi.

Craig

[cdntomato]

Craig, it's your take on dwarf that got me really thinking about what a 'dwarf' is, what calling something a 'dwarf' meant. When I noted varieties like Scoreby Dwarf and Dwarf Gem not meeting those criteria...

How about this: I suspect that I will be doing the largest dedicated grow-out of different so-called dwarf-types, compact determinates and indeterminates in 2006. I intend to take pics of plant, branch, flower and fruit/truss for each. Can we talk about definitions again in the autumn, id'ing what varieties fall into what category then?

I should be able to post my full grow-out listing by the end of the week, though a few 'shorties' continue to straggle in via the post office.

How does that sound?

Jennifer

[clay199]

what about Russian Red?

[mdvpc]

Clay-RR for me is a compact with rugose foliage-about 4-5 feet tall.

[clay199]

It made about 30 inches for me, but full full full of tomatoes.
Strange how different regions have different experiences.

[mdvpc]

Clay-Strange-I wonder if one of us has a cross-I got my seed, like I assume you did, from Glenn. I am going to email him and see what he says.

[clay199]

Yes, I got my seed from the famous New Zealand gardener Glenn. I will phone him today, he is going flat out and is complaining he has no time for his computer. Any other questions?

[cdntomato]

Ask Glenn if he can take the anchovies off the all-dressed?

Studying the psych of tomatoes now, Clay? Are you no longer incommunicado?

'nuf questions?

j

[clay199]

I am insane. Test tomorrow and two next week. Major term paper started.

J, I wouldn't be incommunicado if you were able to answer your phone occassionally.