How old is the Cherokee Purple?

[PaulF]

Could it be on garden web or iDig or the Tomato Garden or Not Just Tomatoes or Seed Savers Exchange or Dave's or,or etc. etc? And guess what? I don't worry about being banned unless I get nasty with someone personally or use bad language excessively or.... read the rules to get the "do not" list. This site is well run and visited by a very congenial group with a great amount of knowledge not limited to tomatoes. So enjoy without fear of banishment.

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by lilhammerlane

Ha-ha...oh really?

Yeah, really!!

This site believes in the intellectual discussion of many subjects for the sake of teaching and learning. You need not fear the extreme paranoia of Garden Web nor the attacking mobs of Idig. Here is the peaceful utopia we all seek when we put our priorities on the labors in our gardens and leave personalities and "one-upmanship" to the children who know only the ignorance of competition for friendship and social standing.

Whuuufff!

Ted

[lilhammerlane]

ok, thanks Ted....
The post was written in The Tomato Garden, under Tomato discussion....the thread is called,
"Heirloom Apparitions"

I want to Re-word my use of calling somebody a liar.
That was not right to do-Im sorry for that.
I dont post much in here, but I do enjoy the reads, thanks again for helping out the history of the Black/Purple gene.

[fortyonenorth]

Thanks for directing us to the thread. It's an interesting read and I certainly give credit for the thought invested in developing the conclusions. That said, I think he/she is going out on a thin limb with many of the sweeping conclusions. There's definitely truth in some of the assertions (e.g. "... plants that are taken from one country then sent to someone in the United States where it is renamed") are reasonable; however statements such as: "I would bet that 99% of the time the 'new' or 'mutation' is just a seed from a known variety that accidentally found it's way into a seed trade" strike me as way over the top.

[ireilly]

I agree that doing research into the ancestry of plants is analogous to doing traditional genealogy in terms of difficulty. So difficult to prove things without direct documentation, testimonials, etc., plus there can be skeletons in the closet.

But when you get direct testimony from someone, they are telling you what they know to be true. Whether what they were told was absolutely true or not is not alway knowable, whether it was intentionally confused or not. But it's one of the closest things to the described thing/event you will get. It's a gift. Record it and see if you can prove it or disprove it, or suppport it or undermine it. Better than no information at all, and often it's colorful and fun to speculate on.

[travis]

The third hand speculation of where and when Cherokee Purple originated is not what makes it a beautiful, great tasting tomato. Those are natural traits inherent in the plant and fruit itself, Godgiven traits the words of man cannot change.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

The third hand speculation of where and when Cherokee Purple originated is not what makes it a beautiful, great tasting tomato. Those are natural traits inherent in the plant and fruit itself, Godgiven traits the words of man cannot change.

Well said Travis, very well said.

About documentation, or not, of varieties, accessions, etc.

Three years ago I had a plant that had three branches on it with fruits of a different color on each branch. Now that's somatic mutations at work and somatic mutations are very rare as opposed to mutations in the seed DNA.

Did I talk about it, did I save seeds from the fruits on each branch, did I share those seeds with anyone, did I take a picture of it?

No, I did none of the above so as far as the rest of the world is concerned it never existed.

And that's my point; just b'c something isn't documented doesn't mean it hasn't existed. Which is good to keep in mind, especially when it comes to possible parentages for older varieties. I offered two varieties from Macedonia in my seed offer in Jan and Steve was in Macedonia and collected seeds from those two varieties. And said that folks in one village were growing one of them and folks just a few miles away in another village didn't know them at all when Steve showed them the fruits. Neither had names so Steve had to name them.

Steve is now trying to get me seeds from a pink heart he saw there from his contacts there. I'll be waiting, heart lover that I am.

Now if you believe what I said above about three somatic mutations occurring on a single plant of course you'd be wrong, but I wanted to make a point and elected to do it that way.

Of the thousands of varieties I've grown over the years I've only seen two somatic mutations and I was thrilled to even see them.

And now to shower, late, two tomato phone calls intervened, so I can get out to watch the mens' 1/4 finals from Dubai. Tomatoes are not my only obsession, there's tennis, historical fiction , dark chocolate, nuts and Diet Pepsi.

[lilhammerlane]

Carolyn, the Steve you mention- is that Hillbillypie?

[Mischka]

Originally Posted by O.P. Mater

lilhammerlane,
Could you please supply links to your sources? Was the information in a book or was it online? Thanks!

Originally Posted by lilhammerlane

I would, but its in another site, and I dont want to get banned for mentioning it.

Originally Posted by matereater

They don't do that here.

Originally Posted by lilhammerlane

Ha-ha...oh really?

I will warn you right now Blane that although it's true you won't be banned for mentioning another site here, you will be banned if you've intentionally come over from that specific site to stir up trouble here.

The ice beneath you is preciously thin, so skate very carefully.

[Fusion_power]

Minor quibble Carolyn. To have 3 fruit colors on one plant is not necessarily a somatic mutation. It could be caused by jumping genes aka transposons, or it could be caused by a phytochrome moderated temperature response where more or less sunlight/heat caused different branches to express different colors. Regardless, a very interesting plant. You should have saved seed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposon

DarJones

[mjc]

Let's jump back to an assumption that has been made that started this whole thing off...

The basic assumption that dark colored tomatoes were pretty much an unknown until the Russians started playing around with them in the 40s (releases in the 50s and 60s that were dehrybridized means at least 5 probably 10 or more years worth of work/growouts before the release).

While it may be true that there is very little in the commercial offerings in the way of dark tomatoes, before this time (like nothing), there is nothing to prevent local populations from being developed. So, until the time we have the funding to provide DNA testing for several thousand named varieties, we are just going to have to, for the most part, accept the histories as provided by those that have introduced them to the 'modern' trade. Yes, there are some histories that are obviously manufactured, yes there are some that are just renames of other know varieties (but THAT has been going on for ages and is one of the reasons for the first 'pure seed' laws to be enacted...but a different story for a different time), but for the most part, most of those histories are all we have to go on.

Are there far fewer varieties around than there are names for them?

I'd say more likely than not.

Are some of the 'extinct' varieties still around, under a different name (one that isn't documented)?

Probably...

Are some of the varieties the same thing with a different name because more than one person 'introduced' it?

Again, very likely...

Does any of it really matter?

No, not really...all that matters is whether or not it is a good tomato, worth growing and worth spreading around.

[travis]

Someone please explain Fegee tomato and Fejee Improved Beefsteak, variously described as "brown" or "maroon" and introduced about 1878, by Livingston Seed Company. Brown or maroon coloration indicates gf to me.


http://www.tomatoville.com/attachmen...0&d=1202689211
http://books.google.com/books?


http://books.google.com/books?id=e82...tomato&f=false

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by lilhammerlane

Carolyn, the Steve you mention- is that Hillbillypie?

Nope, not the same Steve. Actually I had to search here and there at member lists to find him and where he lives, etc.

The Steve I referred to doesn't post anywhere as far as I know. He PMed me off GW and that's how it all started. he had brought home with him from Macedonia the two tomato varieties and a lot of peppers and some herbs. I asked for the tomatoes and told him that I couldn't mature the peppers here and I think I suggested to whom he might send them, but upon thinking about it he may have also sent me some of those pepper seeds as well.

Lots of Steves out there, I agree.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

Minor quibble Carolyn. To have 3 fruit colors on one plant is not necessarily a somatic mutation. It could be caused by jumping genes aka transposons, or it could be caused by a phytochrome moderated temperature response where more or less sunlight/heat caused different branches to express different colors. Regardless, a very interesting plant. You should have saved seed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposon

DarJones

No quibble at all Darrel. I was just making up a simple example and used the situation where it could have been 3 somatic mutations, which is patently ridiculous as we both know. But for me to go into jumping genes or transposons, or other explanations would not have been met well, I don't think.

Actually as I recall the first jumping genes were detected in corn ( I forgot to read the Wikepedia article before I started this post) by a former Prof of mine, or one of his grad students, and his name is/was Dr. Adrian Srb and he was at Cornell. I learned a lot of genetcis from him and well remember taking home my fruit flies at Xmas to continue working with them and almost knocking out myself and any one in the room with whatever it was that I was supposed to use to knock them out to be able to shove them around into piles to work out the genetics. Good memories there.

Bacteria are rife with transposons and jumping genes so I know them well.

[Mischka]

This is the post that lilhammerlane aka blanesgarden is referring to.

The poster goes by the username "original" here and "hillbillypie" elsewhere, hence I have quoted them by their Tomatoville username.

Originally Posted by original

Let me start this by saying this is not in any way personal or even directed towards any person for that matter. I feel like I needed to say that because sometimes Internet forums can be down right mean spirited and quite often what is inferred is nothing at all like what was implied. Mean people suck, and I am not mean.

A.W. Livingston is considered by many to be the Father of the modern tomato. Livingston said, "The American public is not satisfied with old things, however good they may be." Livingston was saying this in response to the question if he was still developing new varieties. People don't change. Everyone always wants what is new. Whether it is ink wells or IPods, telephones or tomatoes the collector mentality is and always has been alive in humans. If that is the case and people in Livingston's time were no different than in ours, then wouldn't it be highly unlikely that very many varieties from more than 50 years ago really exist today? Wouldn't people from the 1800's and later want the newest next best thing as opposed to saving seed? Are there really that many heirlooms? Let me start by telling you how I came to this question.

I was on a trip a few years ago and stopped at a roadside farmers market. Naturally I was drawn to the Amish man's quite impressive varieties of tomatoes. I just knew I was going to find a long lost heirloom or at the very least sample an old fashion tomato that I had heard about, but never grown. I asked the man if he knew the names of the varieties and he said he did. My excitement level grew. I started filling a bag with as many different tomatoes as I could grab. I stopped long enough to ask him what the bright yellow perfectly shaped fruit in my hand was and he replied, "Sunny Goliath". I then asked about others, "Whopper", "Mountain Spring" were the answers I got. He had one called "Big Boy" He told me "he had been growing that one for years". I couldn't help but think the guy was such a sell out to his culture. How dare him be growing these workhorse hybrids when he is supposed to be hoarding 100 year old seeds! But that got me thinking. Why wouldn't he want the latest most disease resistant hybrids?

I wonder how many people when asked about a particular tomato in their garden would reply that they have been growing it for years? This is a very important point here. Let's say in the mid 1980's you found a tomato that had been "grown for as long as anyone could remember", just how long do you think that would be? In reality I'm betting no more than 30 years or so. There was a huge urge to buy "new hybrids" in the 1950's. I wonder how many people that didn't understand that an F1 hybrid would not grow true from saved seed kept growing and
selecting every year from saved hybrid seed? It would certainly be unique, and it would be "grown for years", but it would hardly be something that is 100 years old which is what so many claim about so very many "heirlooms". "Grown for years", "as long as I can remember", and "been in the family for years" are all very subjective terms.

The second issue I find with heirlooms is the most compelling. It is impossible for some tomatoes that are claimed to be over 100 year old to have existed prior to the 1950's. There are several instances where the stories surrounding the tomato variety are totally fabricated. I am only going to mention two groups and let the rest of the readers do their own sleuthing for further evidence. As stated in a previous post about the gf or "green flesh" gene is what is responsible for giving brown, or purple or the so called "black" tomatoes their unique color. The
gf gene was not even introduced into the gene pool of tomato breeding until the late 1950's and early 60's. I'm not sure what would motivate someone to fabricate a story about Cherokee Indians growing a tomato. The more likely scenario is that the seeds got passed around the academic world pretty much the way the "blue" tomato a.k.a. P20 has made it's rounds today. The Soviet plant breeding programs worked heavily with the gf gene in the 1960's and so what we know as Cherokee Purple more likely came from good ol' Russia and not the
wigwams of Native America. I recently talked with a plant breeder that worked from the 50's-70's and he said that he worked with "dark" material in the 60's and even tested a few in the field. They didn't see a market for the tomato, so the breeding line was not pursued. I won't go into too many details with the second example, but the GWR (green when ripe) type tomato has a similar story. The genetic material for GWR, from what I have researched, was not in the gene pool until about the mid 1950's.

The third issue I have with "heirlooms" comes from the imported heirlooms. Are we really to believe that a farmer selling in Kiev, for example, would NOT have the latest, most novel, and disease resistant variety available? This is sort of arrogant isn't it? But scanning through many of the histories I have found in seed catalogs and online, it appears that there are maybe hundreds of plants that are taken from one country, then sent to someone in the United States where it is renamed and assumed to be ancient. I'm not even going to bother with examples
because there really are hundreds of them. Why would we assume that the variety found in a market or even growing in someone's garden would not be a KNOWN cultivar? And yet that is exactly what is done.

Another thought here. It seems that when someone grows a tomato that does not meet their expectations of what they thought they were
growing, they simply rename it. I have followed more than a few threads on other forums where people are growing a "new" variety or a "mutation" of an old variety with the anticipation of the new found fame that comes with introducing a new cultivar. I truly believe the "big fish in a little pond" mentality is what's driving the desire to "find" a new cultivar. I would bet that 99% of the time the "new" or "mutation" is just a seed from a known variety that accidentally found it's way into a seed trade. If there was some way to genetically test the varieties that are currently being offered in trades and at commercial vendors of Open Pollinated seeds we would have to cut 2/3 of the named varieties out of the catalogs as being the exact same as an already known variety. There is a thread currently on another forum where the tomato that was grown is genetically impossible to have been produced by the "accidental" cross that was postulated.(yellow F1 from a red parent for one thing). When faced with the genetic impossibility, they decided to call it a "mutation". I bet this time next year it is "introduced" and given a new name even though I would bet next years salary on it just being a stray seed or even mislabeled seed. I am not an expert by any means on tomato genetics. I do know a little about genetics in general. Mutations do occur. In fact, evolutionary theory is based on multiple mutations. But those mutations occur over hundreds of thousand, even millions of years. Mutations are usually what scientist call "deleterious". In other words, when a mutation occurs it is quite often deadly. A large number of mammalian miscarriages are due to a deleterious mutation. Successful mutations are actually quite rare in most species of plants and animals.

With that being said, is the tomato unique among the plant world? Are there really that many mutations? It would seem that if the tomato was really mutating at the rate being stated to account for the new varieties from "mutations", then it would be very difficult to maintain stability in any variety for very long. I wonder if these changes we see within a variety that are being called mutations are actually a phenotype that has taken multiple generations to show because it is being suppressed by linkage. Many traits associated with disease resistance are so closely linked that it takes many many generations of breeding and inbreeding to separate them. Also when there is say,an inversion in the genetic material it would be nearly impossible for it to have an effect on just one trait such as fruit color switching from red to yellow or leaf going from regular to potato leaf.

My conclusion is that I don't think there are very many true heirlooms. Many of the stories that surround the heirlooms just don't jive with the science. The world of the tomato enthusiast seems to thrive on conjecture. If we are not sure of a pedigree, then guesses are made and one is created.

I think that most of the varieties that we see called heirlooms are either segregating grow outs from F1 hybrids that were erroneously collected by someone wanting to believe they had discovered something old, introductions of KNOWN cultivars from other countries and renamed, and to a lesser extent, segregating grow outs from serendipitously created F1 hybrids. On extremely rare, and I do mean RARE occasions we will see a mutation. I suppose there are also instances with people just flat out fabricating a new name and/or story for a known cultivar. Does any of this matter? Not really. I still grow them. In fact, Cherokee Purple is just about my favorite tomato even if it did probably come from Russia instead of Indians.

I realize this is controversial and even detrimental to some, but I felt compelled to share my observations. Let us please remain friendly and civil with the ensuing discussion.

Thanks
-S-

This reply to why "original" wrote the above post is very telling:

Originally Posted by original

...I'm still not sure what my "underlying purpose" is. (for writing his original post - admin note)

Perhaps it is bigger than I thought.

Perhaps my desire is to establish Democracy in the tomato growing hobby and overthrow this small committee of kings. My desire is to give these stories and seed saving back to the people and out of the hands of despots.

I have a question:

Who exactly, are these "kings" and "despots" you speak of?