Are all floaters immature?

[ljp]

I've been saving seeds from ~25 varieties of tomatoes. I'm using the fermentation method and for some varieties more than half the seeds float. In particular, Sophies Choice (90%) and Ace 55 (100%). The floaters look to be the same size and shape as the sinkers. I usually ferment between 5 and 8 days.

Also, I haven't noticed an explicit sorting/floating step in the various oxy-clean methods. How important is it to discard floating seeds?

[ddsack]

Are you saying that the floaters are in your clear water rinse, or just suspended in the fermentation sludge? Often if you have a fairly thick tomato sludge after squeezing, there will be enough debris in the sauce so many seeds get suspended between the particles, and the fermentation bubbles also may bring some to the surface. However, by the time you get to your final rinse in clear water, there normally are not that many left, and those are usually smaller, paler, and more obviously immature. To have half of them still be floaters does seem a high percentage. I have always discarded any that are not at the bottom of cup by the final clear rinse.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ddsack

Are you saying that the floaters are in your clear water rinse, or just suspended in the fermentation sludge? Often if you have a fairly thick tomato sludge after squeezing, there will be enough debris in the sauce so many seeds get suspended between the particles, and the fermentation bubbles also may bring some to the surface. However, by the time you get to your final rinse in clear water, there normally are not that many left, and those are usually smaller, paler, and more obviously immature. To have half of them still be floaters does seem a high percentage. I have always discarded any that are not at the bottom of cup by the final clear rinse.

Agree with Dee completely. Most often I have to scrape the seeds off the bottom of the mold mat before I remove that to process the seeds more by multiple rinses and it's only at the end of those rinses when the water runs clear that I remove the floaters as well. And there aren't that many b'c if one uses really ripe tomatoes as I do, then the greatest majority of seeds are mature.

And you can always tell the floaters b'c they do not look like mature seeds since the immature ones are more thread like and white.

Hope that helps.

[ljp]

I've been bring the tomatoes in at first blush and letting then ripen until they are quite soft. I put the seeds and gel with a little water in a pudding cup. After a mat has formed, 3-5 days, I add water and float the mat. The floaters stay with the mat. Stiring doesn't affect the floaters, a few will sink. After letting them set for a day or two, I add water and pour off the mat. Then I put the left overs in a small sieve and rinse. Then I dump the seeds on a paper towel to dry.

I haven't been doing multiple rinses.

[Keiththibodeaux]

Originally Posted by ljp

I've been bring the tomatoes in at first blush and letting then ripen until they are quite soft. I put the seeds and gel with a little water in a pudding cup. After a mat has formed, 3-5 days, I add water and float the mat. The floaters stay with the mat. Stiring doesn't affect the floaters, a few will sink. After letting them set for a day or two, I add water and pour off the mat. Then I put the left overs in a small sieve and rinse. Then I dump the seeds on a paper towel to dry.

I haven't been doing multiple rinses.

Stir them up a few times to break the seeds loose from the mat to see which ones are true floaters.

[dice]

Earl Cadenhead would pour fermented seeds, yeast mat, pulp, and all into
a large pickle jar and then turn the hose on full blast and let them have
it. That tended to loosen up any seeds that were stuck to the yeast mat or
to pieces of pulp. Then he would pour it off until he had poured off enough
water to pour what was left back into the fermenting container to do a
few rinses to float off debris and immature seeds, leaving the seeds that
would sink behind.

[ljp]

I'm doing one tomato at a time. The hose and pickle jar may be overkill.

[ddsack]

If I have a nice thick fungal mat, I will pull it up onto the side of the cup, flipped over so I can scrape any seeds back into the liquid mass, then get it out of the cup. If I just have a thin white skin that breaks up, I may not even bother to remove it. I stir vigorously with an old spoon to break up the mass. I then add water to the cup, stir again, wait a few seconds for the mass to settle, and pour off what I can until the seeds approach the lip of the cup. I may do this any number of times until the water is mostly clear, before dumping it into a strainer for the final rinse with running water.

Actually, you can save time by pouring the whole lumpy fermented mass into your strainer and running water into it, rubbing it apart with your fingers. Just about all the rotten pulp will disintegrate with a forceful water spray and be forced through the mesh. I may do it in the kitchen sink, or if the weather is nice, outside with the hose spray on low. I use a hose end connector with an on/off toggle that I can open just the right amount to get a nice forceful spray into a tiny area. After the rinse in the strainer, I dump the seeds back into the same (now rinsed and clean cup) and pour in clean water which should float out any remaining strings of fiber or immature seeds.

I will continue to rinse and strain as many times as I need to until I see no more floating particles. Of course you need to rinse your strainer front and back too, to dislodge any stuck fibers or slime. After my final strain, I dump the seeds onto a labeled coffee filter to dry.

Your pudding cups are fine for fermentation, but may be too small to add enough water to get a good rinse. You might want to use a separate larger plastic or styrofoam cup for rinsing the batch.

[ljp]

Thanks for the replies.

[dice]

I use empty plastic margarine containers. They are generally big enough
for the faucet turned up to loosen the fermented seeds from other debris
in the container. When that is not the case, I pour into a strainer and
do what ddsack suggested.

I am fairly careful not to overflow the fermenting container when
running water into it.

[amideutch]

I ferment my seeds in Jars with the lid setting on top and not screwed down. After 5-7 days I will fill the jar up with water to within an inch to the top, tighten the lid and shake vigorously for 10-15 seconds. I let the jar set for 5 minutes and remove the fungal matt if it is still intack and discard. Pour off the excess water,debris and floaters. Then repeat the sequence 1 or 2 more times. Then dump the remaining seeds into a strainer, immerse the strainer into a solution of TSP and clean the seeds once more and remove from the solution and hold under the faucet to rinse. Then set out to dry.

Now, for the original question. Maybe the next time one of us saves seed, set the floaters aside, clean and dry. Then do a germination test and see what happens and post your results. I have never had 50% of seeds removed from one tomato end up being floaters. Maybe 5% max. Ami

[halleone]

A kitchen whisk works great for whipping the whole ugly, smelly mess up into a frenzy to separate the seeds out....

[carolyn137]

Now, for the original question. Maybe the next time one of us saves seed, set the floaters aside, clean and dry. Then do a germination test and see what happens and post your results. I have never had 50% of seeds removed from one tomato end up being floaters. Maybe 5% max. Ami

*****

Ami, quite a few years ago there were a few folks who did exactly as you suggested and that was at GW . That is, they took seeds from one variety and compared germination with respect to seed size. And also separated out the floaters.

There wasn't much difference in germination with plump seeds of different sizes but the floaters did not germinate, and they shouldn't b'c they are white, thread-like and immature.

And my results have been the same as yours, very very few floaters when ripe fruits are processed.

And once again this thread has shown that possibly no two persons process their seeds the same way, so trying different ways to see what works best for an individual is probably the best way to go.

For instance, I would never use sieves, too gunky, etc., when doing it MY WAY, , works better, at least for me.

[Olderthandirt]

Originally Posted by ljp

I've been saving seeds from ~25 varieties of tomatoes. I'm using the fermentation method and for some varieties more than half the seeds float. In particular, Sophies Choice (90%) and Ace 55 (100%). The floaters look to be the same size and shape as the sinkers. I usually ferment between 5 and 8 days.

Also, I haven't noticed an explicit sorting/floating step in the various oxy-clean methods. How important is it to discard floating seeds?

Fermenting 5 to 8 days may be playing a part in the high float rate. Ive never fermented 5 days much less 8 its a real possibility they have been damaged in that time frame.
Most threads Ive seen on the subject seem to think 2 or 3 days is about right.
I'm not an old hand at seed saving but have had good luck so far with the 3 day max method. Say 10% floaters on mine & I;m wasteful & wash out the lighter sinkers sloshing them around .

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Olderthandirt

Fermenting 5 to 8 days may be playing a part in the high float rate. Ive never fermented 5 days much less 8 its a real possibility they have been damaged in that time frame.
Most threads Ive seen on the subject seem to think 2 or 3 days is about right.
I'm not an old hand at seed saving but have had good luck so far with the 3 day max method. Say 10% floaters on mine & I;m wasteful & wash out the lighter sinkers sloshing them around .

I have a different take on that.

You're in MO, I'm in upstate NY. When I'm fermenting seed late in the season sometimes I've had to let fermentations go for a week or more, b'c they're outside in a protected area, the temps are low and the enzymes that do all the work don't work as fast at low temps.

I monitor the fermentations mainly by looking for the bubbles that appear on the sides of the clear pint containers that I use b'c that tells me when and how fast the fermentations are proceeding.

So I think it's fair to say that the ambient temps are perhaps the key issue on how fast fermentations proceed. And even in the hot late summer I've never been able to process the seeds in a fermantation in less than five days.

Other factors are how thick the fermentation mix is, sometimes I have to add water to thin it out and also how thick is the fungal mat which helps keep the liquid below anaerobic, since fermentation, of the kind wanted for seed processing is a mixed acid fermention which proceeds best anaerobically,

Sheesh, I feel like I'm back talking in Micro 101 right now, but truth be told, I do miss teaching, but also love being retired.