Ramapo seeds on ebay

[travis]

A quick thumb through a 2012 seed catalog and some source googling says different.

[Wi-sunflower]

America may be able to produce grain cheaply, but you don't have to hand pollinate each and every flower in a field of grain.

Back when I was still buying hybrid seeds from some of the big companies, just about every package had a "country of origin" of Thailand or Vietnam. I would imagine now many would also be from China.

Those of you that actually do your own hybrids can speak to the fact that it's tedious and labor intensive and you don't get all that much seed from just a couple of tomatoes.

That's why much hybrid seed is grown in third world countries where workers are paid pennies.

IMO, that's also why many "hybrids" that have been around for a while are most likely stabilized so the seed companies can skip that labor intensive step. I know not everyone will agree with me on that. I also know that not ALL hybrids have been stabilized. Especially the newer complex varieties like Sun Gold. But I would rather not argue that point.

Something I thought about when the seed production was mentioned is the location of much of the production. It's known that seed production of bean seed takes place in areas like Idaho because the DRY conditions mean no or very low disease pressure. I wonder if all the tomato seed being produced in tropical countries with all the high humidity and rain might not contribute to some seed borne diseases. At the least, those tomatoes have probably had LOTS of pesticides on them to get the crop. A dry climate like Israel using controlled drip irrigation would in theory have less disease pressure.

I'm far from an organic purist type as far as chemicals go, but might not that high chemical use eventually make some of those chemicals less effective for us small growers.

Just some other things to think about,
Carol

[carolyn137]

IMO, that's also why many "hybrids" that have been around for a while are most likely stabilized so the seed companies can skip that labor intensive step. I know not everyone will agree with me on that. I also know that not ALL hybrids have been stabilized. Especially the newer complex varieties like Sun Gold. But I would rather not argue that point.

*****

Carol, I don't really want to argue the point either, but unless an F1 hybrid is dehybridized to an OP version, by selection, it remains an F1 hybrid and new F1 seed still has to be produced in the labor intensive way that you noted although these days it's become a bit simpler with use of male steriles since their pollen is defective, for at least some F1 production, so that the removal of the corolla of the female recipent doesn't have to be manually removed with its attached pollen bearing anthers. And then the proper pollen can be directly applied to the stigma of the female recipient.

So an F1 Hybrid is stable already and remains an F1 hybrid and never becomes stable as an OP unless one goes through the dehybridization process.

Just speaking of Sungold F1 there are several OP's out there now that appear to be quite close to the F1. There's Reinhard's two, and perhaps Vince and Lee G. can speak to that as well if they see this thread and your comment. And another one I know of, seeds not public yet, but last I knew it retained the scent of the foliage which some folkis working with SunGold feel may be genetically linked to taste. The person working on that one does not post here.

I've never tried to remove corollas from blossoms myself but reading the problems that others have run into I do know how difficult it can be although I do know that with practice quite a few folks become very skilled at doing it.

[ddsack]

Carolyn, I took Carol to mean that maybe the seed companies might have done the dehybridizing themselves to save hand pollination production costs and purposely misrepresented the resultant OP's as still being the original hybrids. This of course would be unethical, but the average home gardener would have no way of knowing if something sold under a well known name was still a hybrid or not.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ddsack

Carolyn, I took Carol to mean that maybe the seed companies might have done the dehybridizing themselves to save hand pollination production costs and purposely misrepresented the resultant OP's as still being the original hybrids. This of course would be unethical, but the average home gardener would have no way of knowing if something sold under a well known name was still a hybrid or not.

D, a bit of backstory here.

Carol and I and others have chimed in, have discussed this before here at Tville. Carol had read in Carol Deppe's book that I think it was Alan Kapuler had found that some varieties that were sold as F1's, when grown out were really OP's.

But that was over 10 years ago now, and I think the situation now is quite different as to standards and it would now be highly unusual to find a known F1 variety being sold that was really an OP. Yes, perhaps years ago, but not now.

One of the biggest problems is growing out enough saved F2 seeds from the initial F1 fruits to look for genetic segregation. I know some folks who aim to put out maybe 20-30 plants and not that many folks have room to do that although some of the folks who are now doing their own breeding projects seem to able to find that kind of room.

So yes, I do think that Carol was referring back to the info in the 1 st edition of Deppe's book and not changed for the second edition, that some varieties, I think only a few were mentioned, were sold as the F1 originals but were something quite different and I don't know from which F generation.

A few weeks back I was looking at a seed website and someone was offering an almost stable OP version of an original commercial OP but clearly gave the background as to how many plants were put out initially with the F2 seeds, what the results were and which selections were made, etc., which I thought was great.

Carol, this isn't the arguing you were trying to avoid, as I was, I think this is more in the line of clarification than anything else.

[Wi-sunflower]

Yes, I meant exactly what Dee said.

That's why when we grow out many of the older "hybrids" we see little to no segregating. The seed companies long ago stabilized them. At least some of them.

Carol

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Yes, I meant exactly what Dee said.

That's why when we grow out many of the older "hybrids" we see little to no segregating. The seed companies long ago stabilized them. At least some of them.

Carol

Carol, our responses were just one minute apart and my post is just above yours so I don't think you saw it when you wrote this one.

[Wi-sunflower]

Carolyn we posted at the same time.

Yes you know what I was referring to. And I too don't believe the newer varieties are stabilized. But the older (as in 20 + years old types) sure do seem to be already stabilized.

Carol

[Fusion_power]

When Ramapo was offered - again - about 4 years ago, it was offered in packs of 30 seed or in packs of 1000. I have not seen it offered in small packs recently. I just checked my stock of seed and see that I am down to about 200 which is not enough for next year. I will be ordering seed in bulk so if there is enough interest, I will re-offer them here. Anyone interested?

DarJones

[travis]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Yes, I meant exactly what Dee said.

That's why when we grow out many of the older "hybrids" we see little to no segregating. The seed companies long ago stabilized them. At least some of them.

Carol

Not to argue the point, but rather to become more educated to your point of view, would you please provide us with the names of the hybrids that you allege are stable open pollinated lines, I mean the ones you've grown out and found no segregation?

[Wi-sunflower]

Lemon Boy, First Lady and Sweet Million are what I can think of off the top of my head.

Carol

[Fusion_power]

Lemon Boy, First Lady and Sweet Million are what I can think of off the top of my head.

Of those three, only First Lady is really worth growing IMO. But then, I am biased. I've grown some really good flavored yellow tomatoes and I have some outstandingly good cherries. Why should I suffer eating poor seconds. First Lady is a qualified nod. In some climates where it is adapted, it is a very good tomato.

DarJones

[sirtanon]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

When Ramapo was offered - again - about 4 years ago, it was offered in packs of 30 seed or in packs of 1000. I have not seen it offered in small packs recently. I just checked my stock of seed and see that I am down to about 200 which is not enough for next year. I will be ordering seed in bulk so if there is enough interest, I will re-offer them here. Anyone interested?

DarJones

I am.. please let me know if you do this.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

When Ramapo was offered - again - about 4 years ago, it was offered in packs of 30 seed or in packs of 1000. I have not seen it offered in small packs recently. I just checked my stock of seed and see that I am down to about 200 which is not enough for next year. I will be ordering seed in bulk so if there is enough interest, I will re-offer them here. Anyone interested?

DarJones

Darrel, my brother bought the 25-35 seed packs of Both Ramapo F1 and Moreton Hybrid just last year.

And when I just Googled Rutgers was also offering both for 2011, and if you look at the bttom of the page from the link below you'll see that Rutgers is sold out of both Ramapo F1 and Moreton Hybrid for 2011 and suggests that folks go to Harris Seeds, and give the link, to get Moreton seeds.

http://njfarmfresh.rutgers.edu/docum...-orderform.pdf

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Lemon Boy, First Lady and Sweet Million are what I can think of off the top of my head.

Carol

Carol, the only experience I've had with saving F2 seeds and growing them out was from Big Boy F1 and Better Boy F1, both now almost close to 50 years since they were first offered as F1 varieties. And I was doing it to see if I could get out the one parent of both , which is Teddy Jones and a pink beefsteak and I've psoted about this here at Tville before, actually more than once.

Of the first 12 plants I put out of saved seeds from Big Boy F1 I got two plants that had pink fruits. And from the only 6 plants I put out from Saved F2 seeds from Better Boy I got one pink fruited plant.

So they were and still are F1 hybrids and show genetic segregation when saved seeds are sown and planted out. New hybrid seed for both is constructed all the time to meet demand.

The third one I worked with was Ramapo F1 and that was done b'c it had gone out of production and I wanted to grow out saved F2 seeds to see if I could make selections and get an OP version.

I only planted out four seeds of the F1 and got two that were not Ramapo. Saved F3 seeds from those selections that looked like and tasted like Ramapo were put out and looked and Tasted OK and I sent the first of the F3 seeds to Barkeater, who posts here, b'c he was a commercial farmer in NJ and knew the F1 well, as did I b'c we grew it on out farm.

So genetic segregation also occurred with Ramapo F1 as well, proving it was an F1 hybrid.

At each growout I also to put out F1 plants sent to me by a friend in NJ who had sandbagged some F1 seeds as well as plants from some F1 seeds I was able to get from a Prof at Rutgers.

And quite a few folks are now growing the I think F6 or F7 and the OP version has been stable for many years now.

I don't see why hybrids that have been known for 20, 30, 40, even 50 years would be genetically OP as you've suggested. When new F1 seed is needed, due to demand, then that new F1 seed is constructed and sold.

I also know that the variety Santa F1, made famous by Andrew Chu in FL is a hybrid, but one has to grow out close to 100 plants to find that offtype as Andrew told me. He said it was round, not grape shaped, and had a lower Brix level than true F1 fruits. And I think it's a good one to look at b'c it took that many saved F2 seeds from the initial F1 plants and growing out at least 100 plants before an offtype did appear which said that indeed Sant F1 did show genetic segregation thus was an F1 hybrid.

And in my other post above I did speak to the need to put out lots of plants from saved F2 seeds from an initial original F1 variety in order to see genetic segregation and I think Santa F1 illustrates that nicely.