Compost and timing

[dice]

[composting conifer needles]
This faq on composting leaves has some comments:
https://sharepoint.cahnrs.wsu.edu/bl...ng-leaves.aspx

I mix them into container mix just for the air space and drainage
that they add, without expecting them to decay to silt in a season
or two. Same thing for mulch: I will put a few inches of fir needles
on the soil and then top it off with something heavier to keep them
from blowing away in the wind. The next spring, they will still be there,
taking years to decay.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Alpinejs

Anyone have experience composting pine needles. I have a big pile of needles that
came from two pine trees since removed because of the mess they created. Some of the
needles are 15 yrs. old and haven't decomposed. I just added a whole pick-up load of
horse manure and we are adding kitchen scraps, coffee grounds, etc. in hopes that
it will help. They must ultimately decompose or my woods in Canada would be feet deep
in needles. I had a worm composting bin on my deck, but when I left last spring for
6 mos. in Canada, I put them in the needles. The summer here was VERY hot and we
get virtually no rain in the summer, so.......I only found about five worm survivors but
with the manure, coffee, eggshells, cardboard, etc., I think they will reproduce big time.

My grandmother from North Carolina had 3 solutions for pine needles and before her my grandfather "Daddy Thellie" and another one too. Passed down over the generations in stories but not always practised.

1) bedding, but layed down VERY thick as they are not very absorbant.
2) Burned for the very rich ash.
3) a "permanent" mulch around the base of trees. (this is the most common use, makes for a very neat clean well manicured looking lawn with tidy circular borders around the trees that are pretty weed free)
4) plowed into the soil where a longer lasting organic material that doesn't want to break down fast can be of benefit in preventing hardpan.

I don't necessarily recommend any of these solutions. Everyone has its benefits and problems. In general needles were considered more of a problem than a benefit. I haven't personally had to tackle the problem myself since I did very little actual gardening or farming help on the North Carolina family farm, (a different branch of the family) just passing on some family info.

[TightenUp]

does it really take so long to for pine needles to break down? i mulched my plants with them this season. i havent been able to clean up the garden for the fall because of hurricane sandy.

should i turn the needles into the soil or brush them away from the garden? i have a sandy loam soil with extremely high organic matter

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by TightenUp

does it really take so long to for pine needles to break down? i mulched my plants with them this season. i havent been able to clean up the garden for the fall because of hurricane sandy.

should i turn the needles into the soil or brush them away from the garden? i have a sandy loam soil with extremely high organic matter

I would personally work them in if you are a person that tills your soil. They only become a problem when they become too concentrated.

[TightenUp]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

I would personally work them in if you are a person that tills your soil. They only become a problem when they become too concentrated.

sounds good. they are on top of the black mulch material i put down to heat the soil early in the season. once its warm i cover with organic mulch and this is my first time using pine needles. i remember reading good things about mulching with pine needles which i why i used them but this thread got me thinking it might be better to just brush em off the black material.

i guess i will work them in next chance i get. the jersey shore is finally accessible to the public(at least where my house is) so i should be able to get down there soon.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by TightenUp

sounds good. they are on top of the black mulch material i put down to heat the soil early in the season. once its warm i cover with organic mulch and this is my first time using pine needles. i remember reading good things about mulching with pine needles which i why i used them but this thread got me thinking it might be better to just brush em off the black material.

i guess i will work them in next chance i get. the jersey shore is finally accessible to the public(at least where my house is) so i should be able to get down there soon.

Don't get me wrong, pine needles are great, in relative moderation. I actually have a personal theory (unproven) that the soil actually does better with a certain amount of "slow to decay" organic material to balance out the fast swings in nutrients available from faster decaying materials. That's one reason why lazagne beds work, done right. You should have celulose (paper), brown mulch (leaves, straw), green mulch (and possibly a few others). Each decays at a different rate so one of the layers is providing nutrients at all times.

It isn't the layering that makes it work, strictly speaking. It is the combination of materials at different stages of decay and providing different nutrients, micro-ecosystems, etc.....

The layers may have a small amount to do with it, but tilling in very rich soil can also be good.

Some people see me advocate no till so much that they think I am saying other ways are wrong, certainly not. I choose no till mostly because I am too lazy to spend the work involved in a traditional "victory" garden.

BTW as long as the needles are not too thick you wouldn't even have to till them in. You could add new layers counting them as your first "brown mulch" layer, or even count them as your last cap layer.

[TightenUp]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Don't get me wrong, pine needles are great, in relative moderation. I actually have a personal theory (unproven) that the soil actually does better with a certain amount of "slow to decay" organic material to balance out the fast swings in nutrients available from faster decaying materials. That's one reason why lazagne beds work, done right. You should have celulose (paper), brown mulch (leaves, straw), green mulch (and possibly a few others). Each decays at a different rate so one of the layers is providing nutrients at all times.

It isn't the layering that makes it work, strictly speaking. It is the combination of materials at different stages of decay and providing different nutrients, micro-ecosystems, etc.....

The layers may have a small amount to do with it, but tilling in very rich soil can also be good.

Some people see me advocate no till so much that they think I am saying other ways are wrong, certainly not. I choose no till mostly because I am too lazy to spend the work involved in a traditional "victory" garden.

BTW as long as the needles are not too thick you wouldn't even have to till them in. You could add new layers counting them as your first "brown mulch" layer, or even count them as your last cap layer.

thanks for the reply. i dont till but i will turn the soil old fashioned style with a shovel. its a small plot and the shovel gets the job done. i will do my best to spread the pine needles evenly throughout while turning over the soil

[kilroyscarnival]

I could have sworn that in the past two weeks, I skimmed an online article about composting Christmas trees that suggested that pine needles could be broken down faster by soaking them in a compost tea. But I can't find it again. It must have been two separate articles and I'm confounding them.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by kilroyscarnival

I could have sworn that in the past two weeks, I skimmed an online article about composting Christmas trees that suggested that pine needles could be broken down faster by soaking them in a compost tea. But I can't find it again. It must have been two separate articles and I'm confounding them.

If there is a trick that composts them faster, I am sure lots of people would like to know. But even slow, the needles on one small Christmas tree are not enough to worry about anyway.

My Family in North Carolina had several HUGE old pines in the yard. They would get piles of needles several feet thick when raked and since they take years to decay, they were coming out their ears! That's why they were a problem. Needles in moderate amounts are fine.

[greentiger87]

I've gotten lots of weird looks this week as I've carried bags of oak leaves/acorns from around the neighborhood to my house for mulching/composting. I knew I should've waited till the sun goes down.

If only there was some systematic way to redistribute organic material to gardeners..

[habitat_gardener]

Originally Posted by greentiger87

...If only there was some systematic way to redistribute organic material to gardeners..

Some years ago on gardenweb, someone posted photos of his truck. It was fitted with a big tube that "vacuumed" leaves up from roadside piles. He'd accumulated a huge number of truckloads of leaves -- so many that in a photo the mounds of leaves were bigger than the truck.

[kilroyscarnival]

Originally Posted by greentiger87

I've gotten lots of weird looks this week as I've carried bags of oak leaves/acorns from around the neighborhood to my house for mulching/composting. I knew I should've waited till the sun goes down.

If only there was some systematic way to redistribute organic material to gardeners..

You could always ask. But I know what you mean. I have been toying with offering to rake leaves for 1 or two neighbors in return for keeping the leaves. Then I think, that kind of sounds like criticism! My one deciduous tree on my rental property tends to drop the majority of its leaves onto my front porch, so as soon as I've cleaned them up there are more. I just wish I had last year's leaves to play with! I understand palm fronds take forever to break down.

Oh, yeah, that is what it was - not Christmas trees - where they talked about steeping in compost tea, or applying some raw chicken manure, to help them break down.

http://www.gardeningtipsnideas.com/2...lm-fronds.html

[habitat_gardener]

Originally Posted by kilroyscarnival

Y... I have been toying with offering to rake leaves for 1 or two neighbors in return for keeping the leaves. Then I think, that kind of sounds like criticism!...

Inspired by the extreme composters on gardenweb, I put a "leaves wanted" ad on freecycle one year, asking for bags or offering to rake. I actually raked someone's front and back yard and filled the car with bags of leaves! But I got an extra bonus that "cured" me: kitty poop. Of course I stepped in it while I was collecting leaves. I didn't see it, but I smelled it right away. The people didn't even own a cat! It was from a neighborhood cat. I'm always astounded that so many people let their cats roam the streets.

[dice]

That link reminds me of yucca leaves. One time I put some in
the chipper/shredder. They never came out the other end,
they ended up just wrapped around the shredder blade. (This
happens with fresh green winter rye top growth, too.)

Now I simply lay them out for mulch under rhododendrons or
similar and cover them with wood chips.

[kilroyscarnival]

I'd be tempted to offer to collect leaves or rake, but I might just put some little notes out to houses within a few block radius. Kitty poop is a given around here, we have lots of feral roaming cats. But I still resent the big-dog-poo that is routinely left on my lawn. I love dogs and used to have one, but always bagged his waste when out walking or in a park.