Inheriting a clay garden for veggies

[kevn357]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Not all soil called clay is really clay and not all clay is alike.
Some will hold water for days and some for a few hours.
Some is good enough to make pottery from.
Some is red some is gray.
The best thing to add to clay or clay loam soil is sand and humus.
Then till it to mix it up.

I'm sorry if you didn't take my question about color and type seriously.
But there is no professional way a person could answer your question without the information.
Telling a person to ad this or that without knowing the PH of the soil or the fertility of it is haphazard.
I will not give advice on that basis.
In my opinion.
Worth

Sorry, I work very long shifts on the weekends and am trying to reply to everyone who are taking their time to offer aid. I appreciate every reply I get!


The clay is reddish. And it holds water forever. We had a nasty drought last year and his garden did the best he can remember...

I don't know anything of substance for this area yet. I was hoping I would find a local who had some knowledge. When I moved here last June I tried to till the soil, and said, "nope"! Since it was so dang hard. I borrowed a rototiller nicknamed "shamu" that couldn't make a dent into that hard clay so I made some grow beds and made my Self watering containers and had success since I know how to do that.

We live a mile apart and the clay is the same. When it did rain his garden looked like a pool beside the rows and the clay was sticky and heavy to the boots.

[kevn357]

Originally Posted by Got Worms?

I've dealt with clay for the past 37 years.
Right off the bat:
Heavy clay soil......................Cannot be corrected in 3 months
Poor drainage ......................Cannot be corrected in 3 months
PH out of whack ....................Cannot be corrected in 3 months
Fertilization...........................Unless you correct the PH it won't matter.

Be this as it may, you need to start somewhere. So here's my plan.
The number one, without a doubt, absolute first thing to do is take soil samples , and get a soil test done.

Divide your garden into at least 4 areas of equal space and take 1 sample from the center of each area. Samples are taken by using a clean (washed) digging tool (scoop) and scraping the top 2" off before using your scoop to take a sample and put it in a clean baggy. When you have all the samples, dump them all into a larger bag, (freezer bag) and mix well. Send it out or take it to your county extension or private lab. If you can't find a place to do it, you can get a test kit and do it yourself, but you (at the least) need to know the PH before you start anything else.

Once you know your PH you'll have a better idea of what you can add to your clay to condition it. I.E. if your soil is truly alkaline as you suspect, you can use pine needles, oak leaves, acorns, peat moss, etc. to remedy the clay and start to get closer to a 6.5; maybe even use a little sulfur.

If on the other hand, should your soil prove to be acid, (and you are in an acidic region, being east of the lime line); then a little lime would be in order. Composted organic matter (including composted manure) is more or less neutral, will condition the soil and give it some tilth, without raising or lowering the PH so it would be great, if you could get some. Whatever you do, don't add any sand, sawdust, or wood chips. Wood shavings can be added in the fall mixed with leaves and manure and left to rot over the winter. Sand into clay makes concrete. Sawdust mats down and excludes air so it does not break down readily and ties up nitrogen.

Making these additions will tie up some nitrogen in the process of breaking down the carbon in any un-composted organic matter, so I would suggest compensating with side dressings of alfalfa meal or pellets. Other nutrients will be dependent on the test results.

Before you plant make sure you follow Redbaron's advice and dig out your paths and heap the soil onto your beds. Grade your paths to drain the water to the lowest area. Hopefully the lowest area will be away from the garden. If the paths fill with standing water use bricks, boards, blocks etc. to walk. It's how I started out many years ago, to get drainage, and I live on a flood plain. Later on you can think about raised beds (beds can be made any size up to 4' wide), or Hugelculture is another option.

That's enough for now...I'll help if I can, but right now... I need a nap.
Charlie

I had him test the soil last year in Spring and the PH was 7.5. He sent the soil in to a local college.

The biggest problem is drainage. His garden thrived in the drought last year while I needed to water my beds everyday. When he had average rainfalls the prior year his garden looked like garbage when I visited in August.

[kevn357]

Originally Posted by Mark0820

It's not fresh horse dung. It is AGED horse manure. This is an example of what it looks like:

http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/grd/3587966875.html

It is very light and has a texture similar to peat moss. When added to clay soil, that is what makes the soil drain better.

That looks great. I assumed fresh, because I've never seen aged horse manure. It's always aged cow manure where I lived. Thanks for the correction.

[habitat_gardener]

Originally Posted by kevn357

I had him test the soil last year in Spring and the PH was 7.5. He sent the soil in to a local college.

The biggest problem is drainage. His garden thrived in the drought last year while I needed to water my beds everyday. When he had average rainfalls the prior year his garden looked like garbage when I visited in August.

I have good clay in my garden. I've been adding homemade compost to the soil for 10 years.

I never walk on my soil! Walking on it compacts it and destroys the soil structure created by worm tunneling. Especially when it's wet!! Rototilling also destroys the soil structure.

Define permanent beds, 3-5 ft. wide (no wider than you can comfortably reach across without stepping on the soil, ever), and never walk on that soil. Define permanent paths between the beds and walk only on the paths. I use mulch on my paths (free from tree trimmers), deep enough to prevent weeds. If you get sticky mud, you need something on your paths that you can walk on. If the paths are lower than the beds, water will drain away from the beds.

added: Clay is great soil for gardens. It has a great capacity for storing and releasing nutrients.

[Mark0820]

Originally Posted by kevn357

That looks great. I assumed fresh, because I've never seen aged horse manure. It's always aged cow manure where I lived. Thanks for the correction.

It really doesn't matter whether it is horse or cow manure as long as it is aged. I just mentioned horse manure because that is all I can find for free on Craigslist in the Cincinnati area.

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by Mark0820

It really doesn't matter whether it is horse or cow manure as long as it is aged. I just mentioned horse manure because that is all I can find for free on Craigslist in the Cincinnati area.

Typically the the reason you can find horse manure for free and not cow manure is because dairy and Beef farmers are also grain and hay producers and therefore they have large field to spread the manure on. Horse stables don't necessarily have large acreage of crops associated to them.

[dice]

Use hipped up rows (Google is pretty useless for finding a good
photo of this; imagine the clay dug out of paths up to a foot deep
and piled up between them; you plant in the raised part).

Alpaca manure is great stuff. I would pile it up 6 inches deep by a
couple of feet wide in rows where I wanted to plant, then dig out
the paths between rows 6 inches deep up to the edge of the rows
of piled up alpaca manure, and put that on top of the alpaca manure.
Good to go. Plant in the clay right on top of the manure.

(You can worry about finding stuff to line the paths with any time.
Straw will work. Shredded leaves will work. Etc. Putting down strips
of cardboard or several layers of newspaper in the paths and then
mulching over them with something heavy enough to keep them
from blowing away in the wind will help keep weeds down in the
paths. You can also plant a "living mulch" in the paths and walk on
that, but it needs to be something that will not spread sideways into
the rows, does not get tall enough to shade the crop, and can survive
being waterlogged when it rains and walked on as you maintain the
rows.)

You can consider amending with stuff to correct any deficiencies
found in a soil test or to adjust pH as a long term project that this
year's garden does not have to wait on. You can do that stuff in
the fall, after harvest, or if it is products like gypsum that can rain
in, you can just scatter it on top of the garden any time.

Consider planting tillage radish in between plants that are still
in the beds from the summer crops. It needs to be planted around
Labor Day. (It has a serious taproot that will break up the soil
below what were the rows, improving the drainage, organic matter
content, etc.) The top growth simply gets left in place, turned in,
mulched over, or whatever you do with the rows next spring
(simply covering it with a new layer of alpaca manure is fine).

[dustdevil]

If you add sand to most heavy(clay) soils it will be like concrete. You need to add organic matter. Some trucking companies sell so-called "topsoil" by the truckload and some of them even sell compost. Some cities/counties have free organic matter available...I'd call and check when and if there is some municipal freebee near you. Take note, in some places where there is snow, municipal yards may be closed until Spring and you have to transport the organic matter yourself. I can get free leaves and ground up bark/wood chips, but they won't be broken down in 3 months. Building rich friable soil is an ongoing process.

[Worth1]

I have heard this for years and it isn't so.
It isn't so where I live either and I have a red clay to clay loam soil.

You need to add 50% sand to the clay but I guess a PHD from Washington State University doesn't know what they are talking about.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...,d.b2I&cad=rja

As for the furrows it is the very best thing you can do.
People in the gulf area of Texas do it all the time to keep the plants out of the water.
They have great gardens in their black gumbo soil.

Worth

[dice]

PS: 6 inches of alpaca manure and 6-12 inch deep paths between rows
is not an absolute requirement, that is simply a best case. If you do
not have that much manure, then you can make the piles shallower
or narrower. If your soil takes a backhoe or a stick of dynamite to
dig a hole in, maybe you can only manage 3 inch deep paths between
rows.

That is still the way to go, though. A 3-inch deep path beside a 3-inch
high pile of alpaca (or horse, or rabbit) manure makes a 6 inch high
row. That gives the water some place to drain off from the rows into.
You want the rows oriented so that the furrows between them run
downhill, even if the grade is minimal, rather than across the grade,

Here is a method for testing manure, compost, etc for contaminants:
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/aminopyralid/bioassay.html

(The alpacas are probably pastured in spring, summer, and fall,
and the pasture may be herbicide-free, but the owner may need
to supplement with commercial hay in mid-winter, thus raising
the risk of undigested herbicides in their manure. Cheap enough
and fast enough test to be sure before using it.)

[kevn357]

Originally Posted by dice

Use hipped up rows (Google is pretty useless for finding a good
photo of this; imagine the clay dug out of paths up to a foot deep
and piled up between them; you plant in the raised part).

Alpaca manure is great stuff. I would pile it up 6 inches deep by a
couple of feet wide in rows where I wanted to plant, then dig out
the paths between rows 6 inches deep up to the edge of the rows
of piled up alpaca manure, and put that on top of the alpaca manure.
Good to go. Plant in the clay right on top of the manure.

(You can worry about finding stuff to line the paths with any time.
Straw will work. Shredded leaves will work. Etc. Putting down strips
of cardboard or several layers of newspaper in the paths and then
mulching over them with something heavy enough to keep them
from blowing away in the wind will help keep weeds down in the
paths. You can also plant a "living mulch" in the paths and walk on
that, but it needs to be something that will not spread sideways into
the rows, does not get tall enough to shade the crop, and can survive
being waterlogged when it rains and walked on as you maintain the
rows.)

You can consider amending with stuff to correct any deficiencies
found in a soil test or to adjust pH as a long term project that this
year's garden does not have to wait on. You can do that stuff in
the fall, after harvest, or if it is products like gypsum that can rain
in, you can just scatter it on top of the garden any time.

Consider planting tillage radish in between plants that are still
in the beds from the summer crops. It needs to be planted around
Labor Day. (It has a serious taproot that will break up the soil
below what were the rows, improving the drainage, organic matter
content, etc.) The top growth simply gets left in place, turned in,
mulched over, or whatever you do with the rows next spring
(simply covering it with a new layer of alpaca manure is fine).

This seems like a solid strategy. One question though? How will the alpaca manure affect fertilization? I think I remember reading that it is minimal.

[gnol]

I have clay where I live. It is like concrete when it dries and holds water for a long time when wet.

My main bed which was 7x3 metres when I started was like concrete.
As you can see in the pic I even used some to build my Cob oven.
What I did was put 3 cubic metres of topsoil from one of the local garden places and grew on that.
I also mulch a fair bit every season and it is now pretty good in most places.

Good luck with whichever way you go.

[dice]

Lower NPK than rabbit or horse manure. If you can pile it up 6 inches
by a couple of feet in the rows, it should be enough, though. If the
plants look a little underfertilized, you can fill a plastic garbage can
about 1/3 with it, fill it up with water, let it sit for a week, then water
with it for a supplement. Or dig a shallow trench along the edges of
the rows and fill it with more alpaca manure. It won't burn the plants,
so you can put it on any time during the year.

I cannot really guess about micronutrients without a soil test or
seeing the growing plants. What did your father use for fertilizer
the year of the drought, when the garden performed well?

[neoguy]

this is how we do it in our backyard.

[dice]

Figure that if you have a bulldozer dig out a 2' deep hole covering
the whole garden, and then fill that with topsoil or gardening mix
that you truck in, what have you got? A big bathtub full of expensive
dirt.

With hipped up rows, your plants have some root space that is
raised above the average soil level of the area that will retain
more air space when it rains.