Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[beeman]

Originally Posted by LDx4

Beeman, where in Canada are you located? Do you get regular, below-zero freezes in the winter in your area? I ask because I think that part of the problem with living in some California climates is that we don't get that extreme cold weather in the winter, and I suspect that fungus etc. just overwinters here and then strikes again, full force each summer. I work to supply the "good guys" to my planting each year as you do, but in my garden the good guys are way overpowered by the "bad guys." And now with this especially bad year of disease, I'm just ready to throw in the towel and use some atomic methods. Lyn

I live in the middle of Ontario, and yes we do get lots of frost. In fact during January it rarely gets above the freezing point. We used to get 15 feet of snow over a winter, but lately about 3 feet.

Don't give in Lyn, I too had a horrible time of it the last few years, but this one, so far is totally different.

I suffered with numerous problems, finally professionally diagnosed as 'Corky root rot'. So in an attempt to fix the trouble, I found Biotamax, a bacterial inoculate which I am trying for the first time. It's advised to physically dip the whole plant, pot and all, just before plant out. Seems to be working.

I also sprayed the whole garden just yesterday, perked and greened up everything.

Worth a try?

[Salsacharley]

beeman,

I like your approach that doesn't require a degree in biochemistry (or does it?).

I've got 3 Thunder Creek plants that are doing pretty good here in the high desert. I think our extreme lack of humidity could be an advantage if we can get fruit to set in this heat. I'm using the toothbrush pollinator and I think it is working. I'll know more it a little while.

Thanks,

Charley

[beeman]

Originally Posted by Salsacharley

beeman,
I like your approach that doesn't require a degree in biochemistry (or does it?).
I've got 3 Thunder Creek plants that are doing pretty good here in the high desert. I think our extreme lack of humidity could be an advantage if we can get fruit to set in this heat. I'm using the toothbrush pollinator and I think it is working. I'll know more it a little while. Thanks,Charley

I don't have any degrees, only a certificate from the school of hard knocks!
The approach is quite simple. A tablet in a 5 gallon bucket, with 1/2 cup of molasses, brew for 24/48 hours. Short time for bacterial, longer for fungi. Then either dip or spray the plants, or as a soil drench. Adds all sorts of bacteria and fungi that the plants need to protect themselves.

Biotamax don't talk of brewing, I just used my microscope and did my own experiments.

As to pollination of tomato. I was always taught a spritz of plain water into the blossom during hot weather. Works for me.

[Paradajz]

ok, about the verticillium preventive- cure, you can see the basics here
http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost....3&postcount=22

but for V. it needs to be amended with following steps:

1. COOKING
as i mentioned earlier, warmer climates have certain advantages. one of the few ( very few ) is a possibility to fry some of the bad guys, especially the heat- not- loving ones, such as verticilliums, all strains.
* Autumn ( in my area November would be just perfect ), fresh manure ( horses, cows, etc. ) 3-5kg/m2, deep tillage in the soil
* mulch- foil cover with holes made to enable air flow on the tilled ''manured'' soil
* 5-10cm straw mulch on the top of it

our gran- gran- gran- gran- fathers actually used to do this every Autumn ( most probably didn't have the scientific knowledge to understand that fresh manure shouldn't be used but once in 3-5 years period, but they certainly somehow knew it would do wonders with their soil... )
the point here is not that this makes wonders with soil's humus content, beneficial living forms and fertility, with V. management the point of the procedure is on the temperature side- fresh manure will ferment in the soil for 4-5 months, and while doing so it will increase it's temperature up to 80C. a very significant percentage of the heat- intolerant verticilliums will say their farewell in the process.

2. SEASONING
fusariums are quite environment tolerant and don't mind a company on their playground, but with V. it's something different- this buggers are very ''crowd sensitive''.
therefore, step n4 from the original fusarium procedure should be amended:
* vermicast ( mild ) + beneficial bacteria tea, every 7-10 days
( plase note, it's beneficial bacteria and not myco- solutions for a reason: at a long term myco- solutions can significantly amend/decrease the PH soil value trough it's ''root work'', which is actually a favorable thing to various villains such as V., F.... )

and i forgot to mention on the original thread- don't use kelp but as a foliar and in the later plant stages ( when first fruits prepare to start changing color ).

i also forgot to tell Bill that F. needs the procedure repeated for 4 consecutive years. with V. it only needs ''cooking'' once- in the year n1, and the other steps repeated without it in year n2, year n3 should be ok only with organic part of procedure ( steps 2 and 4 from the original procedure ).

finally, some 8 years ago at the farm my family owns, the soil has been so severely infected with F. for years that it eventually came to some 40-45% range, resulting in 30-35% of annual yield losses, and that was commercial growing of chosen tolerant hybrids. the procedure took care of it in 4 years.
don't worry, N., i have never once in my life either recommended or done soil fumigation, the procedure i find both chemically and financially unjustifiable

and, finally, if substances such as fosetyl aluminium/or fosetylat ( a very mild- toxicity selective systemic, makes wonders with root system and plant's overall strength ) and propamocarb aren't available to you, the procedure has shown some 90+% positive results without it ( in the lab test results conducted for 5 years ).


i'll see to post some update on the puzzle thing later, to see what we have all learned from each others

br

p.s.
actually, if your climate is as close to mine as it should be, there is still time for you and Steve to test the procedure ( without ''cooking'', results should be approx. the same ) - if you happen to have a couple of handy seedlings, pick the ''worst'' spot at your garden where you would expect the hardest hit from the villains, plant 3 plants at min. 50cm distance, one with the full procedure, one without fosetylat part, one as a control plant, and see what happens.

that is, if you still keep disregarding the basic advice i made here... TO TAKE ONE OF THOSE PLANTS AND TEST IT.
although i am unfortunately quite convinced that both of you will be seriously considering this procedure if you do the lab test of your plants.

[beeman]

I am unsure if this will fall in line with the previous post regarding 'cooking', but this works! I have for the last 5 years adopted a black plastic cover over the whole garden, mainly as a weed control, but it does in fact help with any insect problems.

I till the garden whenever I get an empty area, seasons end, making sure to water the surface, I then cover with builders black plastic, about 4ml. This I believe heats the soil, germinates the weed seed, but without daylight the weeds die off. At the same time it would effectively kill off 'verticillum spores'.

I don't bother to worry about air movement, leave it covered till spring, peel it back and sow direct. It helps to prevent rain and snow compression.

Works a treat, heats the soil in the spring for better germination and general growth. Might be the answer to a 'maidens prayer'?

[aclum]

Hi Naysen (& maybe Steve??),

I SO agree with Ivan when he says to TAKE ONE OF THOSE PLANTS AND TEST IT!! Esp. as the opinion on what exactly you're dealing with seems a bit amorphous <g>.

I had my soil tested by these people:

http://www.al-labs-west.com/

I just had my soil tested, but the report was very thorough and they were quite helpful in a follow-up phone call. They seem to have all sorts of pathology tests available as well as the soil tests.

Also, in another thread (or two), Raybo and Delerium were both starting seeds and/or grafting or cloring for a fall crop. Maybe you should give that a start, possibly rooting a cutting in a non-infected soil, maybe in a grow bag or whatever away from your infected beds. It would give you a back-up while you do battle with your main crop. (I'm planning to start a few new plants soon as I'll have to start topping some plants before long - like tomorrow !)

Just a few thoughts. As usual, good luck with things!!

Anne

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

ok, about the verticillium preventive- cure, you can see the basics here
http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost....3&postcount=22

but for V. it needs to be amended with following steps:

1. COOKING
as i mentioned earlier, warmer climates have certain advantages. one of the few ( very few ) is a possibility to fry some of the bad guys, especially the heat- not- loving ones, such as verticilliums, all strains.
* Autumn ( in my area November would be just perfect ), fresh manure ( horses, cows, etc. ) 3-5kg/m2, deep tillage in the soil
* mulch- foil cover with holes made to enable air flow on the tilled ''manured'' soil
* 5-10cm straw mulch on the top of it

our gran- gran- gran- gran- fathers actually used to do this every Autumn ( most probably didn't have the scientific knowledge to understand that fresh manure shouldn't be used but once in 3-5 years period, but they certainly somehow knew it would do wonders with their soil... )
the point here is not that this makes wonders with soil's humus content, beneficial living forms and fertility, with V. management the point of the procedure is on the temperature side- fresh manure will ferment in the soil for 4-5 months, and while doing so it will increase it's temperature up to 80C. a very significant percentage of the heat- intolerant verticilliums will say their farewell in the process.

2. SEASONING
fusariums are quite environment tolerant and don't mind a company on their playground, but with V. it's something different- this buggers are very ''crowd sensitive''.
therefore, step n4 from the original fusarium procedure should be amended:
* vermicast ( mild ) + beneficial bacteria tea, every 7-10 days
( plase note, it's beneficial bacteria and not myco- solutions for a reason: at a long term myco- solutions can significantly amend/decrease the PH soil value trough it's ''root work'', which is actually a favorable thing to various villains such as V., F.... )

and i forgot to mention on the original thread- don't use kelp but as a foliar and in the later plant stages ( when first fruits prepare to start changing color ).

i also forgot to tell Bill that F. needs the procedure repeated for 4 consecutive years. with V. it only needs ''cooking'' once- in the year n1, and the other steps repeated without it in year n2, year n3 should be ok only with organic part of procedure ( steps 2 and 4 from the original procedure ).

finally, some 8 years ago at the farm my family owns, the soil has been so severely infected with F. for years that it eventually came to some 40-45% range, resulting in 30-35% of annual yield losses, and that was commercial growing of chosen tolerant hybrids. the procedure took care of it in 4 years.
don't worry, N., i have never once in my life either recommended or done soil fumigation, the procedure i find both chemically and financially unjustifiable

and, finally, if substances such as fosetyl aluminium/or fosetylat ( a very mild- toxicity selective systemic, makes wonders with root system and plant's overall strength ) and propamocarb aren't available to you, the procedure has shown some 90+% positive results without it ( in the lab test results conducted for 5 years ).


i'll see to post some update on the puzzle thing later, to see what we have all learned from each others

br

p.s.
actually, if your climate is as close to mine as it should be, there is still time for you and Steve to test the procedure ( without ''cooking'', results should be approx. the same ) - if you happen to have a couple of handy seedlings, pick the ''worst'' spot at your garden where you would expect the hardest hit from the villains, plant 3 plants at min. 50cm distance, one with the full procedure, one without fosetylat part, one as a control plant, and see what happens.

that is, if you still keep disregarding the basic advice i made here... TO TAKE ONE OF THOSE PLANTS AND TEST IT.
although i am unfortunately quite convinced that both of you will be seriously considering this procedure if you do the lab test of your plants.

Ivan, well I've just finished reading this procedure you've written here for handling V and the other for F, and now for the 3rd time trying to make full sense of it all. I will say that some aspects of what you've proscribed I'm already engaged in. For instance, at plant out I do a root soak with Actinovate, Biota-Max, MycoGrow Soluble (beneficial bacteria) and Great White Mycos. I later spray (was doing a weekly cycle) the Actinovate. Also, I do have an 8-teir worm bin in the garage that I compost through the year, and I give each plant hole a good handful of the fresh worm-castings (vermicompost) at plant out. A friend of mine has brewed tea with castings and other goodies twice now, and I did a drench with it and foliar spray once.

As you say, assuming I can prove to myself with a definitive test that it is of V that I am suffering in the garden, I would be interested in your procedure. But that said I do have some questions about it. I assume you mean for the full 4 steps n1-n4 that you posted to Bill's Fusarium thread to be applied for a V-approach, but with these additions/amendments.

Can you give an example of a commercially available product for copper ( oxychloride or oxysulfate )?

vermicast + beneficial bacteria bio- stimulator + water - Can you give me a finer description of exactly what you mean by this? I assume vermicast is just the worm casting product that I produce in my worm bin. what beneficial bacteria bio- stimulator do you have in mind? Is this a tea, or just all the above mixed together with water into a sludge.

fosetyl aluminium + propamocarb ( Previcur energy ) - I'm not sure we can get Previcur energy here in the states. I saw this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/280925690773?hlp=false&var=) under a search for propamocarb, but it's not cheap, and I'm not even sure that's the product you are to which you are refering. For the fosetyl aluminum, I found these:
https://www.google.com/search?q=fose...w=1168&bih=655
I'm not sure how the two products would be combined if I were to talk myself into using them and dishing out the hundreds of $$$ to purchase them.

For n4 above, I guess you just mean brew a compost tea using worm-castings (vermicast) and something like Actinovate (probably with some molasses to feed the goodies)?

* mulch- foil cover with holes made to enable air flow on the tilled ''manured'' soil - Do you mean to cover the ground with tin-foil? Can you better describe this? Also, why is straw mulch required on top if we're just trying to heat up the soil? This is only during the "off" season, correct? So the mulch would be removed or dug under before planting in the spring?

Why do you recommend against using kelp earlier on in the season and as a drench? Kelp is one of my main fertilizers, and I foliar spray with it every other week or so. Can you elaborate more on this please?

Anne, there are two things I'd like to do now in the way of testing. First, I'd like to have my plant leaves tested for P.M. or any other fungus/mildew. Second, I'd like to have my soil tested for nematodes and for F and/or V. I just need to find a local, reasonably priced lab to do this work. I've been searching. So far, I haven't been able to get a hold of our local master gardeners (UE). I'll keep trying.

Ivan, thanks for keeping the hose aperture wide open with all this information. I'm sure we're all very intrigued.

-naysen

[z_willus_d]

I thought it might be helpful to post these pics of plants that I set out in my father's garden about 2 weeks after my own were first planted. These pics are from this evening. All of these tomato plants were from my own nursery as it were. They were the siblings to seedlings that I used as scions to the grafts set out in my own garden, the pictures of which I've been posting here.

I'm sorry to say that my father's plants seem to be exhibiting the same lousy symptoms as my own, however his are far less vigorous and most seem to be in some kind of torpor leading to diminutive size and reduced fruit set. Of course, some of this could be explained by the fact that his are not grafted plants, but I have un-grafted in my garden and they're as if from a different planet size and vigor wise (except the one Green Zebra that died a hard death).

I actually feel quite lousy about this situation in his garden, since this is the second year now that I've tried to help him "organically" grow these fancy heirlooms with all my know how and prowess and all I've managed to do is tank everything. I think he feels I've given his garden the plague, and maybe I have.

Anyway, I've posted the pics for what they're worth in ascertaining any connection to my own problems.
-naysen

[Mlm1]

Naysen, I am sorry to see you have something killing your plants again this year. I was really hoping the grafted plants would be resistant to whatever you have. This is turning into a most interesting (although heart breaking) mystery. There has been a lot of very good information on this thread and I bet between you, Steve and Ivan the mystery will get solved. I would tend to agree with you on it not being V although Ivan clearly knows his diseases so I am keeping an open mind. My reasons against V are: 1) when I first had wilt and contacted the UCDavis plant pathology department V was not even a consideration for them (only F) which led me to the conclusion that there really is little or no V in the Sacramento area. In searching the literature i have not found mention of V in Sacramento, just lots of F; 2)if it is V or F the grafts should have some resistance. My grafted plants do very well in the fusarium infected soil and I would think it should be similar for V. Are your grafted plants doing any better than the ungrafted?
The fact that your father's plants look similar might be an important clue (or red herring?). I'll be following this thread, waiting to see where this mystery ends.
Marla

[z_willus_d]

Hi Marla, nice to "hear" from you. BTW, I'm still waiting for that post with pics from your "English" trained tomato matrix. The tomatoes you brought by last year and shared with us were by far sweeter and more tasty than any I have grown in several years. I think we can all learn a lot from your process.

On the V vs. F. vs. P.M., I have my same reservations for all the same reasons that you've identified. I wish I could beam Ivan over here so he could take a 30-min stroll through the garden (before it heats up) and so have an in person sense of what's going on.

I just sent an email to this site (thanks Steve), and I'm very hopeful they'll be able to help with some testing of my foliage and/or soil.
http://pdc.ucdavis.edu/Diagnosis_Service/

On the other hand, I'm sure the "hey my plants are turning yellow" cry must be the most common they get from the home gardener, so I might be easy to dismiss or marginalize. We'll see. I'm looking forward to hearing that Steve and Lyn's plants turn-around after the Myclobutinil treatment.

Have a great weekend.
-naysen

[b54red]

Naysen, I just looked at the pics of your fathers plants and some of them definitely look like fusarium. I don't know how common it is in your area but it is common as dirt around here. I can see a plant showing the first symptoms before most people would even notice anything amiss. That is because I have been dealing with the stuff in this garden for 35 years. I am getting fusarium on a good number of my grafted plants even though the rootstock is resistant to fusarium. The grafts onto rootstock that is resistant to all three races of fusarium are doing far better than the ones resistant to two races of fusarium. I'm hoping to get the same results on the Amelia and Multifort rootstock since they are resistant to all three. I'll double check but I don't think any of the grafts onto Tasti-Lee or Floralina are showing any advanced fusarium symptoms and maybe none of them are even showing early signs of it. My plants are all mixed up so I'll have to check each ones tag to be sure.

I went back and looked at pictures I took at the end of May in the past few years and nearly half my plants were already dead or near death. As of this morning I have only had one plant totally die from fusarium; but a few more will be following shortly. One thing you can count on with plants sick with fusarium is an increase in leaf diseases but they tend to be only a big problem on those sick plants. I've used both copper and Daconil as a preventative but neither has kept the diseases from popping up on the plants when the leaves start yellowing badly. For some reason even the bleach spray doesn't have much affect on those yellow leaves so many of the symptoms of disease may only be advanced fusarium symptoms and fusarium is unaffected by the bleach spray.

I would like to see what would happen in your garden and your fathers garden if you planted a few of the varieties that are resistant to all three races of fusarium like Amelia, Tasti-Lee or Floralina. If they did well then you would know that you needed to use a rootstock resistant to all three races of fusarium in the future.

Bill

[Mlm1]

Naysen, Bill has an interesting point on the rootstock resistant to all 3 races. Did you get any Multifort this year? I can't remember if I sent you any. If you did use Multifort (resistant to all 3 races) are they doing any better than the others? If you plan on starting any more grafts and don't have Multifort let me know.

Bill, we do have all 3 races of fusarium in the Sacramento area although my plants grafted on to Maxifort and Beaufort have done well so I must not have race 3 in my garden. I added Multifort rootstock this year just to see how the vigor compares to the others. I can't say I can tell much difference. Have to wait for the results of Delerium's trials.
Marla

Marla

[z_willus_d]

Hi Bill/Marla-

Yes, I have Multifort on my list to test out next year. I'd really like to see the tell-tale sign of fusarium (or verticillium for that matter) in one of the dead plants. I should be able to detect some browning around the insides of the stem of one of these plants, particularly near the base. I was never able to detect this in the past, but I'll certainly check for this on my own and my father's dead plants down the road.

BTW, Marla, I just saw your post on your Sac garden. It's looking great.

Thanks,
Naysen

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by Mlm1

Naysen, I am sorry to see you have something killing your plants again this year. I was really hoping the grafted plants would be resistant to whatever you have. This is turning into a most interesting (although heart breaking) mystery. There has been a lot of very good information on this thread and I bet between you, Steve and Ivan the mystery will get solved. I would tend to agree with you on it not being V although Ivan clearly knows his diseases so I am keeping an open mind. My reasons against V are: 1) when I first had wilt and contacted the UCDavis plant pathology department V was not even a consideration for them (only F) which led me to the conclusion that there really is little or no V in the Sacramento area. In searching the literature i have not found mention of V in Sacramento, just lots of F; 2)if it is V or F the grafts should have some resistance. My grafted plants do very well in the fusarium infected soil and I would think it should be similar for V. Are your grafted plants doing any better than the ungrafted?
The fact that your father's plants look similar might be an important clue (or red herring?). I'll be following this thread, waiting to see where this mystery ends.
Marla

hi, Marla.

nice point there, given that V. and F. visual symptoms are almost identical especially.
on the matter, his descriptions are just excellent, he gives almost all the necessary details and allows me to search for the pattern, which unforunatelly most of the people don't do when simply posting just photos with symptoms.
also have to say that the wish for understanding and knowledge he and Steve exhibit ( being amongst one's virtues i admire profoundly since it stands for people who are noth afraid to do it harder way ) is the fundamental thing which keeps me here at the cost of some sleepless hours . so yes, i also expect the mistery solved, can't be any other way.

why did i name a V. as n1 possibility there?

* the disease comes back to him at the approx. same plant's stage year after year, visual symptoms commented earlier, definitely pictures a systemic disease. it is still a mystery to me why nobody believes it when i say that P.M. is not a terminal disease, actually it's not a substantially dangerous one, and it would eventually stop or at least make a significant set- back with such a climate, it's definitely a disease of an ''explosive outbreak'' and not a ''constant progresser'' as in his case.
* it's terminal but still allows him some yields. it's much more of ''V. image'' than F., especially given the temp horizont over there.
* the stem cuttings of seriously affected plants he did last year would show F. in over 80% of cases. it's much easier to visually detect than a V. which definitely can play a mistery game on it with a man. F. clots and stem damages are mostly highly distinctive, dark and substantial, easy to find, while it happens V. to be almost undetectable that way, with strong plants and warm weather especially. maybe the simpliest way to explain it is that, with such particular conditions, V. ''kills'' more with it's toxicity than ''physiologically''- when clogging the xylem.
* from his descriptions i'd say he definitely sees sufficient number of cases to presume the pattern should be established by now. in terms of probability, this means that he could most probably see a distinctive ''fractional pattern'' of F. if it was the case here. in other words, he would find some of his plants with visual simptoms exhibited only partially- at just one side of a plant or a single section, etc.
* with a F. the word ''wilting'' should be more prominent in his descriptions, not the fire- like chlorosis which suits V. much more under the weather conditions given.
* ''net- science millenium'', with all those numerous descriptions of the famous ''V''- shape chlorosis, somehow makes people search for a clean ''Victory letter'' sign when they inspect their plants. he actually has over 50% of ''V''- shape chlorosis on the photos posted here, just not shaped as a ''Victory V''
* to a certain point F. is considered a more dangerous disease than V., but on the other hand, V. is considered much harder to read and predict, a fast changer it is. BTW, Race 2 is still incompletelly explored, there is a constant problem of acquiring sufficient levels of isolates, but one thing is known for certain since long time ago... it over- came all the known resistant tomato varieties and there is no known tomato resistance to it

N.,

sorry, again a never ending one... i'll see to post some answers to your questions about the procedure, Steve's questions also, a bit later.
in the mean time, very much intrigued by the photos of your father's garden, i'd absolutely recommend that you cut a couple of his plants and examine the stems. with those you'll have far larger chances of finding it if it's there, i'll explain why later.
also, i would greatly like to see some new photos of those plants you and Steve covered earlier, to check the status. and also, if possible, some more detailed photos of the environment of your and Steve's garden would come handy, focused on weeds, flowers, low and tall bushes, anything strange with it especially...

and, finally, the BIG question for you: do you grow form seeds, and, if yes, where did you get it from?

br

[Heritage]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

and, finally, the BIG question for you: do you grow form seeds, and, if yes, where did you get it from?

Ivan, it is my pleasure to add to your sleepless nights
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...437#post356437

Steve