Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

ok, you'll see the procedure of 'root dipping' into the 'slurry mixture' in the next set of photo of those Caspians planting i'll send you soon. photos will have no paper ring part of the procedure, but that one is easy. this is actually a standard procedure i use when planting just about anything, and you should see why on your plants very soon after you do it.
at some other ocasion i'll see to explain the significance of the period starting at 4 sets of leafs and ending with first flowering brunch appearance in a tomato plant life cycle, which is actually the period when the plant's productivity, strength, health and endurance will be ( or not be ) decisively determined.

as for the bacteria strains, oh... there is like a zillion zillions of those.
but let us try this way:
* i'll see to google- check the products you named and inform you on what i think.
* by then, some general info:
- beneficial soil- bacteria ( and fungi and plenty of other microbe life forms ) is, in simple words, a natural inhabitant of a it's natural environment- surface layer of the soil.
- it's beneficial part comes from a fact that, in it's life activity, it symbiotycaly inhabits plant's roots and surounding area, where it does it's job: degrades stuff into forms a plant will use. and it degrades both organic and inorganic stuff there ( plenty of processes of 'cleaning' the soil by using those microbes known to men, i believe the term in English would be 'bio- remediation' ).
- at the same time, these microbes make a 'crowd' down there which additionaly protects a plant from villains, and with V. especially- it's quite an environment intollerant sort of a bugger.
- finally, on the results of it's work you can divide such microbes in 3 basic categories:
1) 'humificators' ; in a very simplified explanation, those turn various organic stuff into humus
2) 'mineralisators'; again a simplification, those turn humus- contained minerals into forms available to the living world ( in our case plants ) to feed on.
3) 'acumulators'; those collect 'the food', from the environment, ranging from soil and water all the way to the air ( nitrogen fixating from the air by bacteria inhabiting leguminosas roots should be the most commonly known example ).

so finally, what i want to say:
it's an extremely wide subject to explaine this way.
further more, the number of those strains is almost not 'name- able'.
most importantly: if i managed to explain it with my English, you'll notice that those bacteria are actually a large piece of any existing forest soil ( top - humus layer ), and also the most beautiful side of any quality Worm- castings.
therefore, if you have troubles with finding it, or prices of those would make your experiment to costly, don't worry. just take some quality Worm- casting and/or forest humus and make a tea of it ( with some brown suggar added, and don't worry about the smell- it's actually a sign that the process is going well in there ). it will absolutely do the job.

and please, for the purpose of the experiment you shouldn't use your Worm- casting production, since it's still a very probable cause of the contamination.
also, i believe that all this experiment should cost you is some time and efforts, and possibly a pack of quality- tested worm- castings

shall continue later, br.

Ivan, beautiful response. I appreciate the nuances and complexities of the microbial world. Even last night I stayed up far too late. I had just started a new AACT batch (my second), 25-gal total this time. I recently purchased a cheapo microscope from our Amazon (an OMAX model), and so I was looking at the bacteria/fungi in the tea at the start of the brew cycle and then after 9-hours. The first 4 pics are what I thought were recently living organisms at the start, but on further consideration I believe they only show slight deformations in the glass (and dust) of my slide. I either couldn't find the organisms for being rusty with a microscope, or there just weren't any to find yet (all still dormant?). Anyway, at 9-hours in I had slides swarming with bacteria (not so much fungi). I need to pull out the microbiology books and figure out how to start distinguishing what I'm looking at. I think gram staining will just not cut it. But despite my "cluelessness" about what exactly it was I was viewing, it certainly was fun to see the life in my nascent brewed tea.

Here is a list (with links) to some of the products I have access to:

• Biotamax - http://www.biotamax.com/BiotaMax.html
• Mycogrow Soluble - http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/...uble-1-oz.html
• Actinovate - http://naturalindustries.com/commerc...2/stplabel.pdf
• Great White - http://www.plant-success.com/index.p...orrhizae.html#
• BioVam (haven't purchased before) - http://www.tandjenterprises.com/CCPR...ioVam-Products
• GH Ancient Forest - http://generalhydroponics.com/site/g...ientforest.pdf
• VermiWorm Worm Castings - http://www.vermicrop.com/vermiworm-coming-soon

There are others I've missed, but the above covers what I've used and have readily available at the local Hydro stores. I sure would love to find a source for the raw strains minus all the marketing and up-pricing. There's probably an ag supply station somewhere not too far away where I could get into that, but to date I haven't managed to locate one that has what I'm looking for. Others on this forum might post a comment with their favorite products, like RootShield, a Trich.-based formulation I haven't used before (http://www.bioworksinc.com/products/rootshield-wp.php).


As to my worm-castings, I've tossed them all out (along with the bins and trays). They've become part of a more standard compost bin. I don't know that the worms have survived the relocation. I think they're gone. Plenty of fruit flies and stuff like that now though. I might start a new bin sometime down the road, but with more care.


Thanks for all the help Ivan!
-naysen

[Heritage]

Ivan, very interesting information! You should write a book
Naysen, I admire your persistence and attention to detail. Good luck with your experimentation - I look forward to reading about your future discoveries.

Steve

[aclum]

Hi Ivan,

Hope I'm not side tracking things too much, but I have a question on something you said to Naysen:
----------------------------------
and please, for the purpose of the experiment you shouldn't use your Worm- casting production, since it's still a very probable cause of the contamination.
----------------------------------

I was wondering, what would be the exact nature of this possible contamination. Could the castings actually be harboring the verticillium or fusarium, or are there come toxins the worms can produce or ?????

(I'm esp. interested in this aspect of things as I have a worm bin too, although I have a strong suspicion that after the recent heat we've been having the whole thing might have to be dumped and restarted).

Sorry if you've already explained this - I haven't been following all the details of everything as closely as I might have.

Thanks!
Anne

[z_willus_d]

It's amazing what 24 hours in the brewing machine can do for the microbial life in my AACT. Here a picture really doesn't do justice to the frantic bedlam that is all kinetic life in one drop under the microscope. It's kind of sad to watch the buggers draw down and fizzle up as the liquid slowly evaporates.

I guess this means it's working.

[efisakov]

Does the last picture has Paramecium caudatum?

[z_willus_d]

Ella, you may be right. It had fuzzy cilia that wiggled as it moved. It's insides were in motion, like some kind of machinery. That was taken under immersion oil using the 100x objective. I'd have to check to see if I was using the eyepiece to make that 1000x or 2000x total magnification. I understand those things might communicate by use of photons, which is crazy. I think they just eat bacteria and dying plant tissue. I'm not sure how beneficial they are or aren't.
-naysen

[beeman]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

It's kind of sad to watch the buggers draw down and fizzle up as the liquid slowly evaporates.

You might look for Mic slides with a hollow area in the middle. It does allow a much deeper 'swimming pool' doesn't dry up so fast, no need for cover slides.
If you have a halogen light source swapping it out for LEDs stops the heat problem.
Just my 2 cents worth.

[z_willus_d]

Hi beeman, that's not a bad idea, but I do have an LED light equipped microscope and the organisms seem to stay alive and mobile for more than enough time to take a good long look at them. I was just pointing out that it's a bit sad to see the stark difference between the hustle and bustle kinetic life from a newly dropped slide vs. a few hours later when I come back and it's dried under the platelet. It feels like a killing chamber, but I'm a benevolent killer in aggregate, considering how many of them I helped to multiply in my aerated bath culture.

Here's the last series from yesterday after 48+ hours of brewing. I should comment that pretty much every dot or spec or line in the static picture is in motion on the viewing screen. They certainly look more impressive in real-time. If most of the globs seem out of focus, it's owing both to the ho-hum quality of my microscope (not to mention my skill level with it) as well as the fact that there is a 3-dimentional effect in the medium even under a plate, and depth of field is limited. I've seen more and more diverse organisms in a drop of the AACT [tea] each time I pulled a sample. I performed a foliar application and soil drench with the 25-gal of product yesterday evening. I like to think my pepper plants responded well to the treatment last time -- they sure seemed to be much healthier with new green growth, and less dying yellow leaves. I wonder if they're more able to benefit from the soil drench since they're in SWC pots where the drench can hang around a bit rather than just wash through?
-naysen

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by aclum

Hi Ivan,

Hope I'm not side tracking things too much, but I have a question on something you said to Naysen:
----------------------------------
and please, for the purpose of the experiment you shouldn't use your Worm- casting production, since it's still a very probable cause of the contamination.
----------------------------------

I was wondering, what would be the exact nature of this possible contamination. Could the castings actually be harboring the verticillium or fusarium, or are there come toxins the worms can produce or ?????

(I'm esp. interested in this aspect of things as I have a worm bin too, although I have a strong suspicion that after the recent heat we've been having the whole thing might have to be dumped and restarted).

Sorry if you've already explained this - I haven't been following all the details of everything as closely as I might have.

Thanks!
Anne

hi, Anne.

it's actually a very rare thing, but in his case seems like a very high probability: the only thing all of his infected plants had in common was worm- castings.

yes, if worms had been fed with infected plant/fruit residues the pathogen will have a happy life in the bin, and will most likely stay there for long. but it only means one has to be cautios about their food and sanitation measures.
in this case i would say that Naysen was most probably really really out of luck with it.

br

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi Ivan, I will certainly go non-grafted, but wouldn't it be a better experiment to choose a variety that shows some susceptibility to V./F. for this experiment? I'd rather see the untreated control go down and the treated control go down but slower, than both growing out just fine? I do know that this condition in my garden seems to be worst in the hot summer months, possibly just because the plants are most stressed at those times. I could try and root some suckers from the top of some of my current plants, most of which look reasonably healthy at their upper 10' and above stretches. I don't know if the pathogen have moved that high up through the plant, since I certainly do not want to start with plants that are already infected.
Thanks,
Naysen

yes, certainly.
sorry, i didn't check the dictionary for the word 'sustainable' i used, took that it meant 'easy target to V.'
anyway, you need to chose plants which are a totally easy target for V.
but please, do not make seedling out of suckers there- chances that you'll get infected plants that way are huge, especially this late in the season.

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Here is a list (with links) to some of the products I have access to:

• Biotamax - http://www.biotamax.com/BiotaMax.html
• Mycogrow Soluble - http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/...uble-1-oz.html
• Actinovate - http://naturalindustries.com/commerc...2/stplabel.pdf
• Great White - http://www.plant-success.com/index.p...orrhizae.html#
• BioVam (haven't purchased before) - http://www.tandjenterprises.com/CCPR...ioVam-Products
• GH Ancient Forest - http://generalhydroponics.com/site/g...ientforest.pdf
• VermiWorm Worm Castings - http://www.vermicrop.com/vermiworm-coming-soon

There are others I've missed, but the above covers what I've used and have readily available at the local Hydro stores. I sure would love to find a source for the raw strains minus all the marketing and up-pricing. There's probably an ag supply station somewhere not too far away where I could get into that, but to date I haven't managed to locate one that has what I'm looking for. Others on this forum might post a comment with their favorite products, like RootShield, a Trich.-based formulation I haven't used before (http://www.bioworksinc.com/products/rootshield-wp.php).
-naysen

Ok, great. We're on the same page then.

I know you've been busy, but when you have a moment or few, let me know your thoughts on the above products.

Thanks (nice looking garden you've got BTW...takes care of itself these days)-
Naysen

[z_willus_d]

I just got off the phone with my UCD contact, and he had an update on additional tests that were performed on the second set of branch samples I provided. I had sent samples from both grafted and non-grafted vines from my garden. These were between 5-10" above the soil level but the sections I provided were those closest to the main trunk of the vine. Apparently, Fusarium can travel fast up the plant tissue while Verticillium is slower and less likely to infect that far up the plant. In short, I probably screwed up not sending in deep crown sections of the main stem.

In any event, he plated portions of my sample from the grafted and non-grafted bags on verticillium and fusarium media. The Fusarium finally grew out from a non-grafted sample. That was used to inoculate soil in a green house that was planted with plants susceptible to the different races of F and V. One type of plant, Early Tak 7, came down with the symptoms of F. They were able to tell from the look of it (cutting) that it was Race1. I'm not sure how you can tell this, but it must be obvious to those skilled in the art.

So, we still don't have a smoking gun pointing to V., but the evidence doesn't add up so well that F Race 1 is really what harassed the garden for a 2nd year in a row. Now with all the Maxifort in play, Race1 Fusarium shouldn't be an issue. The test results seem to bear this out, in that they didn't see anything on the plates from grafted samples.

Next steps:
- Try Ivan's experiment. BTW, on this topic, the person I'm working with noted that none of the beneficial bacteria trials they're performing are really a solution for F. or V. This is the exact research that they're performing both in GH and field. There may be some beneficial effect, but nothing much it seems. I asked him for details on the procedure, and it is similar to what Ivan proscribed with the root covering and hole lining at plant-out. They also tested Trichoderma strains with no significant gains. So this doesn't seem to bode well for the AACT folks, or for me if I have race 2+ V, but it seems there are no hard answers to be had. I will note that this is second hand reporting (on my part) on incomplete research that's not yet published, so certainly take what I say on this topic with a grain.

I will pull some grafted and non-grafted tomato plants soon as well as an eggplant that's particularly sad, and I will deliver these to the UCD plant pathology folks so they can do the proper plating. In a strange way, I'm really hoping we can finally get a clear sign as to V. and what race.

Well that's the update.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Yesterday, I had a personal visit from my UCD plant pathology benefactor. He walked the rows with me, and we played grim reapers to tomatodom in my garden beds. The non-grafted varieties all showed heavy signs of Fusarium, similar to what I documented here last week:
http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost....7&postcount=63

The grafted plants were less obviously Fusarium, but we both agreed that V was apparent in the rootstock crown not to mention foliage signs.

He went away with several bags of samples, and I expect to have better results from the tests performed on this new, fresh batch of detritus. This weekend or next, I'll be transplanting a set of late fall plants to test Ivan's procedures. I doubt I'll get much if any fruit before winter sets in, but it's worth it to me to give the experiment a chance to yield results.

[beeman]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

The grafted plants were less obviously Fusarium, but we both agreed that V was apparent in the rootstock crown not to mention foliage signs.

Lucky you to 'have a visit' from your personal research individual!!
I thought the root stock was supposed to be resistant to F&V? Don't tell me it's all hype again?

[z_willus_d]

Maxifort is resistant to two of the three main races of Fusarium, but it has no resistance to Vert so far as I know. I'll be looking for the optimum RS to fight Fusarium race-1 and V. race TBD for next year's garden.
-n