Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[Paradajz]

ok, now i would really like to be there.

i still need to make an explanation for the wormcasting you'll be using there, and it's effects, and a summary for the finals, but at this point your Ph details need some fast reaction.

ok, we need to make a clear disctintcion for starters:
the test- procedure you will be doing is designed for a simple cause- to show if you can fully control the disease issue there. the fundamental result that interests you is disease related.
on the other hand, it's very clear that a full ''optimal growing approach'' at this particular moment, aiming to make the best of your plants altogether, cannot be fully respected now. there is either no sufficient time to make the soil preparements needed to improve your garden, or it would be unneccessarily complexed for the cause of test results.
therefore, there are quite some significant overal steps that need to be taken for your next growing season there, and we shall have full Autumn/Winter period to elaborate it, but at this specific moment we'll be doing stuff simply to conduct this specific test to the optimal possible result.

some additional info:
generally, soil Ph status ( if correctly given and i would estimate it was ) there is creating a very significant additional complexity. slightly alcaline means that the pathogens are at unfavorable soil at one side, but it also means that plant roots over there are disturbed a bit- there will generally be quite some more additional activity in the root area in such conditions, and consequently more agressive activity from the pathogens may be expected. there are some very open issues regarding it, such as phosphorus ( solubale ) levels in the soil, salinity of your water, etc., which you will need to pay some attention for the next season, but not for the test.

also, some additional sulfur related explanations:
please note, it's clear to me why anyone would think it could be used for increasing the Ph levels, especially when elemental sulfur labels Ph at 9.0 approx. range.
but it is actually quite the opposite- sulfur is one of the best and most effective possible choices for a general and controled Ph decreasement approach. simply, soil bacteria + water + sulfur + normal conditions will result in sulfuric acid and consequent convenient Ph dropp down. it's a completely organic process, and it would be just perfect for your next season ( if you do the ''cooking'' this Autumn/Winter and still determine high Ph values next Spring, it would be just perfect to add some 0.6- 0.7 pounds of elemental sulfur to each 100 square feet of the soil there; hope i converted the values correctly ). the other way is lower Ph peat moss, but it's far more expensive solution when we are talking the whole garden and not a small test area. also, the basic ''minus'' of a sulfur solution at this point is that it takes time- lowering Ph with sulfur is a constant but slow process, which is just perfect for a regular growing season and soil preparements for it, but will not work for your experiment, no time there.

some additional explanations:
the Ph you found there seems appropriate to me, it's a natural result of the combination of your water and soil amendments you made- quite some sands and a bit of lime there, helped by dolomite quite much.
also, calcium being the tricky one there, you need to know that plants will have troubles with it in alkaline soils too, although it should generally be a real problem at thigher Ph levels than yours is.
finally, a tomato plant is quite tollerant to the Ph levels you have there, but for the purpose of both disease control and optimal growing conditions it should be lowered as close to 6.8 as possible.
finally, please note that the plant will make best use of soil nutrients when there is some water in the soil, which basicaly means that the fundamental Ph ( the one which interests you the most ) will be higher due to the water Ph level, which again brings some additional complexity to the issue.


so, what i recommend there:
soil amendments ( 72h after the mixture drench with your current temps ):

* 1- 2 inches of peat moss, thoroughly incorporated in the soil
* 5- 6 lbts of gypsum per 100 square feet ratio, incorporated with the peat moss
* 1.5- 2 lbts of wormacastings per 10 square feet, incorporated with the previous ones
* any organic high potassium fert ( NPK 4 - 4 - 8, 5 - 3 - 9, etc. ) at medium rate, if possible incorporated with the others, if not this one can be done later

this should do, but please note: it's modeled only for the test- use, it's not neccessarilly a procedure you or anyone else should do in such conditions as some kind of a standard. regarding your next season you should absolutely do a soil analysis, and we can talk about the amendments then.

about the recommended amendments:
* peat moss is the fastest, almost ''mechanical'' way to lower the initial Ph. btw, when you get started for the amendments ( 72h after the mixture ), check the Ph again.
* with those factors ( water especially ) gypsum will provide a consistent and long lasting influence towards the preffered Ph level, leave woodashes for the next season
* all the other steps which will come later, in the phase of plants tending, will move in the same direction

nothing to worry, i'm under impression that you are making quite a progress , talk later.

[Paradajz]

and btw, the photos of those plants show leaf disease symptoms in terminal phases, and it's extremely hard ( more like impossible actually ) to make any estimation, but what i saw there ''feels'' more like fusarium than verticillium, with a possibly strong touch of mites. would you say those plants exibited the same symptoms as it was with the plants you provided photos earlier in the Summer? i somehow couldn't notice any traceable V- shapes now, and those were so clearly visible at the earlier photos.

[Paradajz]

... although when i enlarged the photos i did ''almost'' see some.
hope those plates will be talking to us soon?

[z_willus_d]

Hi Ivan,

Thanks for the write-up with instructions. I've been waiting for it. I was a bit surprised to see you pushing for my lowering the pH down to 6.8, given your earlier explanation as to how the V./F. prefer pH in the lower range and less so up above 7. That said, I also know that tomato plants are happy in the 6.5-6.8 range. In any event, I'll work on locating some peat moss and integrate it ASAP as you described. I'll also seek out the Gypsum as well, though I may need to order that one online, which would push back the plant out day somewhat.

One point of clarification, are you suggesting that I should first apply the Copper/Man. solution before applying these soil amendments, or rather should I prepare the soil with the amendments and then apply the drench?

As for the high potassium fert, I've used the following product for a while now, and I think it meets your requirements:
http://www.amazon.com/BioBizz-BBG1L-...o+grow+biobizz

It's a 4-3-6 and I believe is based on beets.

I'll work on integrating the amendments ASAP if you recommend they be applied before the soil drench.

Thanks,
Naysen

[z_willus_d]

Oh, to the question about the photos of my Beaufort grafted plants. I will say that from my depth of analysis (limited), they did look much the same as the other plants earlier on. You're right that the plants are in advanced stages of decline at this point. They do now have mites (haven't sprayed anything for months), as well as likely other issues. I'll need to watch out for these other disease/pest vectors near the experiment area.

I'm with you that the goal of this Fall plant out is 100% to try and determine if I can fight the F./V. problems in the garden. Other concerns, or secondary.

Thanks,
Naysen

[z_willus_d]

I'm sorry to ask again, but on the sulfur question, can you respond to this?

Elemental Sulfur - can I use the Kumulus DF sulfur product that I have already purchased (and did not use) for PM control? Here's a link: http://strawberry.ifas.ufl.edu/plant...mulus%20DF.pdf Otherwise, I have options such as these: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...emental+sulfur OR http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_saca...sulfure&_rdc=1

Thanks Ivan.
-n

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

One point of clarification, are you suggesting that I should first apply the Copper/Man. solution before applying these soil amendments, or rather should I prepare the soil with the amendments and then apply the drench?

I think I answered my own question by re-reading your earlier posts. You wrote:

Originally Posted by Paradajz

all you need to do for the first step is:
* prepare the copper/mancozeb mixture as described ( actually, leaving it for approx. 24h and stiring it up a couple of times is quite important: copper ions will get to the max. stage of activity that way, and the resulting chemical compound will have significantly higher effectiveness ).
* till the soil where you'll be planting approx. 15 inches deep, 20- 25 inches wide, if possible; drench the area for approx. 3 plants with approx. 10l of mixture, soak it good at the exact planting places especially; please note: no soil amendments at that particular step.
* wait 72- 96h for final soil amendments and planting; what are the temps like now, that's what decides how long to wait?

some additional info:
* no amendments at that moment because the mixture will do the following:
- form a very specific and very active chemical compound out of copper/manganese/zinc/sulfur
- directly eliminate exctremely large percent of any fungus presence which came into direct contact with it, bacteria also but to a bit lower percent
- significantly lower the soil Ph
- stabilize in some 24- 48h range and ''wait'' in the soil for a hopefully sufficient time period to restrict the spread of any surviving pathogens

So the drench comes first. Then I wait 72+ hours (BTW, it just rained today for the first time in months and the temp has fallen by ~10-15F it seems. I assume this means I should leave the drench alone for closer to 96h and I question if the rain might wash away the "materials.") Actually, it looks like we'll be sunny for the rest of the weak and back in the upper 90s. I'll follow the original plan and aim to perform the soil drench/soak tomorrow evening.

-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Just for the record, I will mix the following.

- 4 gal garden hose water (pH of 8.75)
- 5TBS of dithane M-45 (http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld61M012.pdf)
- 1 and 1/4 cups of CuPro 5000 (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwBw&dur=925)

-naysen

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi Ivan,

Thanks for the write-up with instructions. I've been waiting for it. I was a bit surprised to see you pushing for my lowering the pH down to 6.8, given your earlier explanation as to how the V./F. prefer pH in the lower range and less so up above 7. That said, I also know that tomato plants are happy in the 6.5-6.8 range. In any event, I'll work on locating some peat moss and integrate it ASAP as you described. I'll also seek out the Gypsum as well, though I may need to order that one online, which would push back the plant out day somewhat.

One point of clarification, are you suggesting that I should first apply the Copper/Man. solution before applying these soil amendments, or rather should I prepare the soil with the amendments and then apply the drench?

As for the high potassium fert, I've used the following product for a while now, and I think it meets your requirements:
http://www.amazon.com/BioBizz-BBG1L-...o+grow+biobizz

It's a 4-3-6 and I believe is based on beets.

I'll work on integrating the amendments ASAP if you recommend they be applied before the soil drench.

Thanks,
Naysen

it's almost never a ''fixed'' answer. for example:

* pathogens generally prefer lower Ph levels, feel some disturbance with higher Ph values; therefore, we generally want it higher
* plants generally need it at 6.5- 6.8 for an ideal environment: roots will make maximum results with minimum efforts in that range, consequently there will be minimal disturbances in the root area, and those disturbances ( resulting in roots secretions increase, and enlarged beneficials activity which will tend to decrease Ph... ) are the initial trigger for the pathogens; therefore, this one makes us generally want it a bit lower than 7.0 as a perfect value
* minerals generally need it in the same range as plants, calcium especially. on the other hand, calcium is our ''logistic support'' much needed to provide the other players with stability. therefore, we again generally want it as in the previous one
* further more, for the reasons explained earlier, we generally want a constant and stabile amount of sulfur there. on the other hand, sulfur will tend to decrease the Ph level.
* finally, we generally anticipate that water we use will be quite above 6.5 Ph range ( this is a standard, should be different only with the rainfall water )

so, it's a certain number of key factors determining what exact Ph we should aim for ( we'll never exactly get it actually, but the point is to turn the process constantly moving that way ). some of those factors suggest oposite tendencies, it's our job to find the ''most suitable consensus'' there.

therefore, while we were anticipating soil Ph at 6.0- 6.5 level as you suggested it could be, my solution was:
* elemental sulfur, because we need it to fight the pathogens off, and because it will decrease Ph in a slow, stabile and very predictable way, meaning it's controlable and the risk it'll get out of hands ( you have probably never done it before, i've done it but i am not that close... ) will be minimal. those were 3 advantages of sulfur in this particular case.
* woodashes, because it will provide us with potassium and, most importantly, calcium, and eventually increase the Ph much faster than sulfur can decrease it.
* wormcastings ( still haven't explained this one ), because it will add beneficials which will work the soil together with sulfur to lower Ph, but also because it should generally be a product ( although not synthetised ) with original Ph values in 7+ range ( more on this when i get to explain wormcastings ).

so, finally, when a general water Ph factor considered, a combination of low quantities of el. sulfur + moderately high quantities of woodashes was in my opinion the perfect choice for the place and procedure, while we expected soil at low Ph values.
the info on 7.0- 7.3 soil values, and 8.75 water value asked for a different strategy there.
once again, i stress: plants cannot do mineral uptake from a dry soil ( 7.15 approx. Ph ), it need some water there. when you count the water Ph in, you see that the actual ''working'' Ph there is somewhere close to 8.0. we want that a bit lower.

the fert will be ok.

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

I'm sorry to ask again, but on the sulfur question, can you respond to this?

Elemental Sulfur - can I use the Kumulus DF sulfur product that I have already purchased (and did not use) for PM control? Here's a link: http://strawberry.ifas.ufl.edu/plant...mulus%20DF.pdf Otherwise, I have options such as these: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...emental+sulfur OR http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_saca...sulfure&_rdc=1

Thanks Ivan.
-n

as i said, no ''direct'' sulfur amendment in this phase. there will be indirect ones, through mancozeb and gypsum.
anyway, even if there was a need for el. sulfur, Kumulus wouldn't do. it's a DF formulation ( specific form of granulated particles designed to be highly water dispersable ), just wouldn't act in the way we need it.

but you'll actually need it there quite much: since there is probably some evidence of mildews and mites over there, a spray ( or two ) with it will be a must. you are very right about it that it would be a shame to overpower V. and F. but lose those toms to some secondary buggers.
more about it when we get to field of actions number 3- plants tending. there we'll need to find a way for some close monitoring, although i believe that, with our mutually shared stubborness, it shouldn't be a problem.

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Just for the record, I will mix the following.

- 4 gal garden hose water (pH of 8.75)
- 5TBS of dithane M-45 (http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld61M012.pdf)
- 1 and 1/4 cups of CuPro 5000 (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwBw&dur=925)

-naysen

uh, i'm losing it now

if i'm correct:
* 4gal of water should be equal to slightly above 15l
* 5TBS of dithane M-45 should be equal to 37.5- 40g
* 1 and 1/4 cups of CuPro should be approx. equal to 300g

ok, if i got the gal/l convertion right ( and i believe i did ):
- than the recommended 0.25% of mancozeb should be 37.5g, which is absolutely ok, anything up to 40g is just fine there.
- but the copper would be recommended ( 1% ) at 150g, no way that much as 300g. especially given that CuPro 5000 contains a slightly higher amount of clear substance ( copper hydroxide ) than regular.

please reconfirm if i converted this correctly, and please, if possible, use a precision scale not TBS and cups there.

[Paradajz]

and again uh, i almost forgot a very important step:

since you are going to put those plants into a field of an extreme disease pressure, you need to have it protected from foliars.
for the sake of the test ( and in a standard growing procedure as well ), i would definitelly recommend a thorough spray with 0.1% CuPro while the plants are still in the pots, as early as 2-3 days before planting, so it could be safely introduced to the new environment.
later it will need some Kumulus, but there is plenty of time to explain that to the details.
also, depending on wheather, it could happen that you get it through simply on CuPro and Kumulus alternations, without a need to expose you to additional expenses for Bordeux mixture.

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

uh, i'm losing it now

if i'm correct:
* 4gal of water should be equal to slightly above 15l
* 5TBS of dithane M-45 should be equal to 37.5- 40g
* 1 and 1/4 cups of CuPro should be approx. equal to 300g

ok, if i got the gal/l convertion right ( and i believe i did ):
- than the recommended 0.25% of mancozeb should be 37.5g, which is absolutely ok, anything up to 40g is just fine there.
- but the copper would be recommended ( 1% ) at 150g, no way that much as 300g. especially given that CuPro 5000 contains a slightly higher amount of clear substance ( copper hydroxide ) than regular.

please reconfirm if i converted this correctly, and please, if possible, use a precision scale not TBS and cups there.

Ivan, I think your math is sound. I aimed for 15L so as to have some spare mixture in case I run short while drenching the area (not control area, only experimental). I, unfortunately, do not have a proper scale for measuring off grams and qty. This is something I've wanted to purchase for some time now (for kitchen cooking purposes as well), but somehow I have failed to get around to making this purchase. So, I had to estimate. I figured the density of the two products to be basically comparable, and further, both similar to general purpose flour. So I used this site to determine the number of cups to a gram assuming that comparison holds:
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conve...me_weight.html

Divide by 16 to get TBS. Divide by 3 to get tsp.

Here are my notes:
Estimate that Dithane M-45 is about the same density as flour Flour has 2.6grams per teaspoon

Want 25 grams per 10l or 37.5g per 4-gal

So 37.5/2.6 = ~14.42 teaspoons
Say 15 tsp or 5 TBS of dithane M-45 for 4 gal

Need 100g per 10L of the copper, so just multiple x's 4
Say 60 tsp or 1 and 1/4 cups of the CuPro 5000

Mix the contents with 4-gal of water and stir every couple hours.
Use 24-36 hours after initial mixing.

In any event, I only used 1 cup of the copper hydroxide, or 125g in my estimation. Do you think this will be a problem? I can add more water and Dithane to bring the ratio closer to optimal if so.

-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

and again uh, i almost forgot a very important step:

since you are going to put those plants into a field of an extreme disease pressure, you need to have it protected from foliars.
for the sake of the test ( and in a standard growing procedure as well ), i would definitelly recommend a thorough spray with 0.1% CuPro while the plants are still in the pots, as early as 2-3 days before planting, so it could be safely introduced to the new environment.
later it will need some Kumulus, but there is plenty of time to explain that to the details.
also, depending on wheather, it could happen that you get it through simply on CuPro and Kumulus alternations, without a need to expose you to additional expenses for Bordeux mixture.

Ok, that would be great. I'm running out of cabinet space with all these powders. BTW, I did find a local source for the Gypsum powder. It's fairly priced at around $15 for a 40lb bag. Sadly, my previous source for Peat moss is now ~$13 a compressed 3 cu ft. bag, whereas I previously purchased it at ~$8 for the same. I think one bag will suffice for my purposes with this small experimental area. On that topic, I intend to correct/amend the entire swath, both control and experimental area. I'll have to put some thought into where to diverge between the two groups for other treatments, such as the foliar sprays.
Thx, Naysen

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Ivan, I think your math is sound. I aimed for 15L so as to have some spare mixture in case I run short while drenching the area (not control area, only experimental). I, unfortunately, do not have a proper scale for measuring off grams and qty. This is something I've wanted to purchase for some time now (for kitchen cooking purposes as well), but somehow I have failed to get around to making this purchase. So, I had to estimate. I figured the density of the two products to be basically comparable, and further, both similar to general purpose flour. So I used this site to determine the number of cups to a gram assuming that comparison holds:
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conve...me_weight.html

Divide by 16 to get TBS. Divide by 3 to get tsp.

Here are my notes:
Estimate that Dithane M-45 is about the same density as flour Flour has 2.6grams per teaspoon

Want 25 grams per 10l or 37.5g per 4-gal

So 37.5/2.6 = ~14.42 teaspoons
Say 15 tsp or 5 TBS of dithane M-45 for 4 gal

Need 100g per 10L of the copper, so just multiple x's 4
Say 60 tsp or 1 and 1/4 cups of the CuPro 5000

Mix the contents with 4-gal of water and stir every couple hours.
Use 24-36 hours after initial mixing.

In any event, I only used 1 cup of the copper hydroxide, or 125g in my estimation. Do you think this will be a problem? I can add more water and Dithane to bring the ratio closer to optimal if so.

-naysen

uh, these weight/volume issues are a nuissance aaaaaaa.........

ok, i'm not a chemist but i still believe that any form of copper should be 2-3 times weight of plain flour, with hydroxide being one of the less heavy forms.
for the purpose of comparison you could check the volume and specified weight of CuPro and estimate how much of flour volume you'd need to come to that weight.


but anyway, for the purpose of this experiment, please just add some 5l of water to the mixture ( something like 1.33 gal ) and stir it up, nothing more. that will do.
btw, with or without the additional water you'll be adding the same amount of active substances to the soil, it is just that, with a larger amount of water, the solution will be able to get deeper in the soil.
on the other hand, this procedure was originally developed for commercial purposes and modeled at minimal doses per a unit of soil area so it would be cheaper. the quantity of mixture per m2 or a plant may actually be enlarged to quite some extent without any danger that the soil or plants will get contaminated.

and finally, a very important question: what kind of TBS of Dithane did you use, overfilled or leveled?