Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[z_willus_d]

You're right Ivan, I did a bit more research, and I screwed up the CuPro portions. Cu Hydroxide has a density of 3.37g/cm3. There are ~237cm3 in a cup and the CuPro product is 61.3% Cu Hydroxide, so I actually applied 3.37g/cm3 * 237cm3 * 0.613 = ~489g of Cu Hydroxide, nearly 5 times too much.

Here's what I'm thinking I'll do to remedy the mistake. I will dump the current 4-gal of product into a larger 18-gal tub. I will add another 3*4-gal of water. Mix. I will add another 3*5TBS (leveled, more or less) of Dithane M-45. Mix, mix, mix. This evening, I'll use ~4-gal of this mixture to drench my experiment site. I will then clear out another large area in the bed for growing broccoli. I will drench this new site as well, with the intention of applying our general experimental procedure for these broccoli plants.

I generally grow broccoli/cauliflower/brassica in the tomato beds during the off-season (Fall-Winter-early Spring), and they seem affected by the same issue, with leaves turning yellow and dropping. It would be good to see if this experiment process will be successful (more or less is fine) in helping the broccoli as well as the tomato vines. I usually start the brassica from seed, but I've fallen behind this year. I hope I can find suitable varieties at the local nursery as well as the tomato seedlings. I'll aim to get these plants some time this week.

Alright, that's the plan to remedy and extend the experiment.

Thanks for catching my error.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Photo1 shows the experimental bed location. It got ~2-gal sprinkled over with a watering can, and then another gallon and a half was poured into the three holes.

Photo 2 and 3 show the locations on either side where I'll plant the controls, 2 on one side and 1 on the other.

I'll give it until around Friday and try and plant out, of course, proceeded by the proscribed amendments.

--naysen

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Yesterday, I had a personal visit from my UCD plant pathology benefactor. He walked the rows with me, and we played grim reapers to tomatodom in my garden beds. The non-grafted varieties all showed heavy signs of Fusarium, similar to what I documented here last week:
http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost....7&postcount=63

The grafted plants were less obviously Fusarium, but we both agreed that V was apparent in the rootstock crown not to mention foliage signs.

He went away with several bags of samples, and I expect to have better results from the tests performed on this new, fresh batch of detritus. This weekend or next, I'll be transplanting a set of late fall plants to test Ivan's procedures. I doubt I'll get much if any fruit before winter sets in, but it's worth it to me to give the experiment a chance to yield results.

I just received this note from UCD plant pathology contact:
"We confirmed that you have Vert and Fusarium race 1 and race 3. We are working on what race of Vert you have."

I believe Maxifort is resistant to Fusarium races 1 and 2, which leaves me exposed to both the TBD race of V and race 3 F. It's good to have that confirmed.

-naysen

[z_willus_d]

I took another set of pH measurements before amending the soil last Saturday (9/7/13). These measurements came in slightly lower than the previous set, so I stuck to just 1" of peat moss in the amendment phase (next post).

Pics 840 through 850 are the pH measurements from a different part of the bed (see pic 840) where I planted broccoli. This area had similar pH to the experimental area.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Last Saturday (9/7/13) I applied the amendments that Ivan proscribed. These were Peat Moss (1" coverage), Gypsum (a couple lb for my area), and Worm Castings (Around twice the weight of the Gypsum for my area).

After tilling in the amendments, I remeasured the pH, and you can see the peat lowered it immediately (perhaps a bit too much, but time will tell).
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

I didn't have time to germinate my own seedings this fall, so I tried to locate tomato plants at the various nearby nurseries. None had any to sale. I found these six plants in front of a Whole Foods market. They were going 2 for $5, but the very nice gentleman there was willing to offer me several of the more gnarly plants gratis. So the good news is I founds some tomato plants for the experiment, but the bad news is the plants weren't in great shape. The varieties I got were: 2x Mariana's Peace, 1x Caspian Pink, 2x CP-AbrLinc Cross), and 1x Japanese Black Trifle. Where I had 2, I split between experiment and ctrl groups. The Caspian Pink went to Experiment, and the JBT to control.

I also planted out 2 six packs of Packman Broccoli from the local nursery. I generally like to sprout my own, but again I was behind this year. This will be my first time trying to grow broccoli from such small seedlings at transplant. So far, I've already lost one to the heat (fizzled up) and two more two what I believe are field rats running amok in my backyard.

Pic 865 shows the beneficial bacteria mix from a half-pill of Biota max. This was mixed with a sludge of the worm-castings you see in the next pic as well as a some handfuls of Ancient Forest compost. I put a good amount of this in each hole (including the control), and on the few plants that were buried deep I tried to wrap the stem in paper bag and pour more of the mix down. Also, each seedling root-ball was dunked/soaked in the mixture before setting down in its hole.

The last several pics show the plants in their homes. I have to say after a week, the seedlings aren't looking so well. I sprayed with .1% Copper Hydroxide the day after planting. I watered in with some (low dilution) of the BioBizz fertilizer I mentioned in a previous post. I'll be cutting down the surrounding older vines (sources for disease and pests) later this weekend or soon at least.

I hope a few can survive if not thrive. More pics to follow in the coming weeks.
-naysen

[beeman]

Naysen.
I have just found some info you might find helpful, as follows:-
"Quote":-
Fusarium wilt - Use same cultural control strategies as above. Plant resistant varieties such as Pik-Red, Better Boy, Duke, Freedom, Supersonic, Jet Star, Springset and Floramerica.

Verticillium wilt - Use same cultural control strategies as above. Plant resistant varieties such as Supersonic, Jackpot, Basketvee, Sunny, Jet Star and Springset.
"End Quote"

That info from the Cornell web site, for home gardeners.
You can read the whole article http://www.gardening.cornell.edu/hom...sceneea10.html If you wish, general Tomato info apart from those two lines.

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

I just received this note from UCD plant pathology contact:
"We confirmed that you have Vert and Fusarium race 1 and race 3. We are working on what race of Vert you have."

I believe Maxifort is resistant to Fusarium races 1 and 2, which leaves me exposed to both the TBD race of V and race 3 F. It's good to have that confirmed.

-naysen

hi, N., and sorry, just got back from a trip.

oh, what a company you have there...
to tell you the truth, i don't think it could get any worse than that. but look at it from the bright side, if you manage to deal with that there won't be anything unsolvable to you left

just short info:

*V. was expected, and i'm afraid it will be R2 which would make things additionaly worse, to quite some extent. on the other hand there is still hope it could be R1, and that the susceptibility of the resistant varieties you've noticed there came from the fact that plants were ''over- powered'' by the F. R1 and R3 cross attacking.

* F. R1 alone, or R1 and R2 together, or even R2 and R3 together, would be very nice comparing to what you have there. in a very over- simplified explanation:
R1 resistance is well documented and researched. resistant cultivars are well developed, and their resistance is ''strong'' ( more than one gene make it ). on the other hand, to my knowledge, R3 resistance is still very ''thin'' ( a single gene creates it ), and the virulence of this pathogen is quite quite higher than the others. further more, in our region ( and i would expect it similar in yours ), usual effective combinations of F. cross resistance ( i want to say: resistance to more than a single race ) goes something like this: R1 and R2 very effective, R2 and R3 solidly effective, but R1 and R3... uh, not so high effectivness in resistant cultivars. in other words, usually varieties solidly resistant to R3 ( and those are just a few ) show lower resistance to R1 and vice versa.

so, nothing gets easy for you there... but, don't worry, you'll make it

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

I took another set of pH measurements before amending the soil last Saturday (9/7/13). These measurements came in slightly lower than the previous set, so I stuck to just 1" of peat moss in the amendment phase (next post).

Pics 840 through 850 are the pH measurements from a different part of the bed (see pic 840) where I planted broccoli. This area had similar pH to the experimental area.
-naysen

it's the mixture working, it will keep bringing the soil to Ph 6.5 for some time.

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Last Saturday (9/7/13) I applied the amendments that Ivan proscribed. These were Peat Moss (1" coverage), Gypsum (a couple lb for my area), and Worm Castings (Around twice the weight of the Gypsum for my area).

After tilling in the amendments, I remeasured the pH, and you can see the peat lowered it immediately (perhaps a bit too much, but time will tell).
-naysen

that's exactly what you wanted the peat to do. don't worry, it's far from over- lowered, the water will keep doing the work for you, and gipsym will help that neither one of those ( peat vs. water ) prevails.

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

I didn't have time to germinate my own seedings this fall, so I tried to locate tomato plants at the various nearby nurseries. None had any to sale. I found these six plants in front of a Whole Foods market. They were going 2 for $5, but the very nice gentleman there was willing to offer me several of the more gnarly plants gratis. So the good news is I founds some tomato plants for the experiment, but the bad news is the plants weren't in great shape. The varieties I got were: 2x Mariana's Peace, 1x Caspian Pink, 2x CP-AbrLinc Cross), and 1x Japanese Black Trifle. Where I had 2, I split between experiment and ctrl groups. The Caspian Pink went to Experiment, and the JBT to control.

I also planted out 2 six packs of Packman Broccoli from the local nursery. I generally like to sprout my own, but again I was behind this year. This will be my first time trying to grow broccoli from such small seedlings at transplant. So far, I've already lost one to the heat (fizzled up) and two more two what I believe are field rats running amok in my backyard.

Pic 865 shows the beneficial bacteria mix from a half-pill of Biota max. This was mixed with a sludge of the worm-castings you see in the next pic as well as a some handfuls of Ancient Forest compost. I put a good amount of this in each hole (including the control), and on the few plants that were buried deep I tried to wrap the stem in paper bag and pour more of the mix down. Also, each seedling root-ball was dunked/soaked in the mixture before setting down in its hole.

The last several pics show the plants in their homes. I have to say after a week, the seedlings aren't looking so well. I sprayed with .1% Copper Hydroxide the day after planting. I watered in with some (low dilution) of the BioBizz fertilizer I mentioned in a previous post. I'll be cutting down the surrounding older vines (sources for disease and pests) later this weekend or soon at least.

I hope a few can survive if not thrive. More pics to follow in the coming weeks.
-naysen

oh oh oh, you really want to make it a ''mission impossible'' with those plants... are you surre those were alive when planting

ok, no time for long explanations, some details only:
* there is little to very little chances those plants could ever thrive, in the healthiest environment of all.
* those are in a desperate need for potassium as an ''emergency service''. on the other hand, potassium will make them more susceptible to F.
* phosphorus is also needed there ( it's a standard part of any growing procedure to feed the plants with some complex phosphorus fert ( ! never use any other kind but a complex P )- once mildly in pot- seedling phase, and once approx. a week after planting , because it will make them grow healthy roots, and it will also make quite some higher plants flowering and productivity ). but i definitely couldn't recommend such a treatment to you, although it's highly effective in tomato growing, mostly because the Ph of your soil, and a various range of basic amendments you have done when filling your beds, suggest that there could be a ''phosphorus situation'' there. that's why you HAVE to do a complete soil analysis before the next season, if it's really the case it could be quite uncomfortable, and i'm not kidding about it, ''loose'' phosphates are not a kind of thing to kidd about. btw, have you had any fruits with a bit of bitter, slightly unusual taste there?
* those plants will also be so very susceptible to just about any kind of pests or diseases you got present there, that it will be a ''task of all tasks'' to keep them alive long enough.

so, questions:
1) temps?
2) rain?
3) what was the look of the roots on those seedlings when you pull them out of pots ( mass, color, tip- ends )?
4) is there any new growth, even a tiny tiny one, you noticed emerging after transplant?
5) are the stems getting ''bigger'' in diameter, and if yes, would you say it's equal with all plants?
6) is the leaf color overally improving?

ok, what you need to observe closely:
- stems, getting bigger on not, deformations, discolorings, tiny irregular brown to orange/reddish lines visible at stems surface
- branches, structure- firm or not, shape- improving from the horrible one those plants had or not, angle- appearing normal or not
- internodia ( a part of stem between two branches ), equal everywhere or not, longer or shorter than usual, etc.
- leafs, for standard sympthoms of course

[Paradajz]

ok, what i recommend to do:

1)
if temps still high and weather dry, mites will be your enemy n1 there. those could finish such plants in a blink of an eye, so it's the primary concern.
what i was planning for was a sulfur treatment ( Kumulus DF ), which would effectively protect the plants against mites, mildews, and additionaly help V. and F. fight if soil soaked with it when spraying ( and you need to soak the soil with both copper and sulfur when you spray for foliars, it's a standard procedure ).
but oh... those plants are still in no shape for sulfur. do you happen to have anything less foliage- aggressive you could use against mites?

2)
copper on such plants is a must. spray it at 0.2%dilution rate, on 9/17 if possible ( with a presumption that you had weather as described earlier, with no mayor temp drops, heavy rains, etc. ), and soak both the plants ( leafs and stems ) and the soil ( 10-12 inches diameter around the plants ) well.

3)
''CPR'' ( emergency life- saving ) procedure:
if you still have some of that kelp, now is the time to use it, along with the fert ( NPK 4-4-6 ? ) you've mentioned. a higher K fert would be much better, but use what you have.
use it in the following way:
I: kelp+fert mixture, both at 50% of the recommended dilution rate, a good- thorough foliar and drench ( directly to the root area ), yesterday if possible. just kidding, but anyway do it asap, and pay attention that the following copper treatment needs to be made not less than 24h after the kelp+fert treatment.
II: kelp+fert mixture, both at 30% of the recommended dilution rate, just a good- thorough foliar, 5 days after the first treatment, but not less than 72h after the copper treatment.
III: kelp+fert+wormcasting tea, kelp and fert at 30% of recommended dilution rate, and you dont have to make any special kind of tea- just put some to a normal temp water, add some brown sugar and leave it like that for 12h, stir it for a couple of times and that's it. both foliar and drench ( directly to the root area ), 3 days after the second treatment if possible.

4)
please, do not water those plants directly to the root area!
a standard watering procedure for a tomato plant ( in the course of the V. and F. experiment or not, this is how it should be done ) :
- the first watering ( at transplant ) needs to be done deep, thorough, directly to the root area; prior to the transplant the seedlings should be put into a state of a mild drought ( a sensitive issue to determine how much of a drought, but it will make them'' shoot'' the roots like crazy after transplant )
- the second one should be done in a similar manner: deep, thorough, directly to the root area, but again after you put the plants into a mild drought state
- the third one should be done deep, thorough, but away from the roots: approx. some 5-6 inches away from the point you estimate the plants roots are at that point; if needed, a circular watering chanel can be made at such a distance
- after approx. 2 to tops 3 weeks after transplant, the plants should have developed an adequate root system; at that point, a watering channel needs to be made on both sides of the plants line, not closer than 10-12 inches to the stems, and deep watering at some 72- 96h intervals should be made ( depends on temp status and soil drainage/water preserving ability ); if you can put a ''drop by drop'' irrigation line there, you don't have to make the full channel, but simply dig some soil where you intend to put the line and move that soil away from the plants so that you create a ''formed'' area for watering; btw, if there wasn't for V. and F., the soil which you dig when forming the watering channel should be moved directly to the stems, helps them grow healthier roots in many ways
- after plants start forming fruits at the second fruit branch, the watering should be gradually changed to shorter intevals with lower water quantity ( eg., you aim for 50% of water quantities you used when you wanted the roots to develop, at approx. 48h intervals, but you don't simply start doing it at once but change it gradually ); this will keep the plants happy, less stressed by high temps ( which you presumably expect at that phase when growing in a regular season ), the fruit cracking will be reduced, and finally, issues like BER or some other deficiencies will be better controled because nutrient leaking and gasification will be reduced

ok, this was a general view on watering, but at your place that brick wall bothers me, it's quite close. if i understod correctly, it's cement bricks? if that's the case, you shouldn't water the plants from that side ( presuming that the wall is quite close to the plants? ), rather a single channel away from the wall and maybe some smaller channels between the plants ( vertically connected to the main channel ) would do.
it's actually quite important

and you definitely need to be checking the plants closely so you could determine when the sulfur treatment could be done, it's cruccial.

[Paradajz]

and, finally, info on V. and F. status and concerns:

* V., if present at the place of the control group, would most probably ''finish'' those plants off by itself, in approx. 4 weeks period tops; V. doesn't usually act like that, but those plants are in such a shape that it would most probably happen- slow wilting, stunted plants, absence of vigor and growth, plants death- but please note, most probably the plants wouldn't exibit any drastical change in leaf coloring, rather it would be a total wilt with foliage still green to some extent.

* F., if present at the place of the control group, R3 especially, should kill those plants in 2- 3 weeks period after transplant tops; and this would be a much more aggressive process, fast wilting with total foliage yellowing and death, most probably stems visualy distorted, discolored, etc.; i'd say sympthoms much more like those from the photos of your father's garden than yours.

so, finally:
* if your test group survives initial transplant shock, with plants being in such a poor shape and direct contact with higly infected soil areas and residues, and exibits no wilting in 3 weeks after transplant period, you made the step n1.- pathogens are being in full initial control.
* if it survives trough additional 2 weeks, and gets into the week. n6 with no wilting and yellowing, you made step n2: pathogens still in control and entering a period when it will present lesser danger with each following day.
* if it survives the period from week n6 to week n10, it's the ultimate step: pathogens in total control.

at this point you cannot expect anything better from plants in such a poor shape. but, again, take the following into consideration:
* it's Autumn, right after a massive infection period, the soil is contaminated at a couple of times higher extent than it will be the case next Spring ( that's actually why V. or F. soil contamination is always judged by Autumn findings, the Winter, harsh or not, will hugely reduce the numbers ).
* those plants are enormously susceptible to anything that could come their way

so, basically, whatever result you achieve there, if it gets you with anything more than 6 weeks of no symptoms, you can solidly count it as a normal growing season in normal conditions, especially when stuff like ''cooking'' included to the equation

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

hi, N., and sorry, just got back from a trip.

oh, what a company you have there...
to tell you the truth, i don't think it could get any worse than that. but look at it from the bright side, if you manage to deal with that there won't be anything unsolvable to you left

just short info:

*V. was expected, and i'm afraid it will be R2 which would make things additionaly worse, to quite some extent. on the other hand there is still hope it could be R1, and that the susceptibility of the resistant varieties you've noticed there came from the fact that plants were ''over- powered'' by the F. R1 and R3 cross attacking.

* F. R1 alone, or R1 and R2 together, or even R2 and R3 together, would be very nice comparing to what you have there. in a very over- simplified explanation:
R1 resistance is well documented and researched. resistant cultivars are well developed, and their resistance is ''strong'' ( more than one gene make it ). on the other hand, to my knowledge, R3 resistance is still very ''thin'' ( a single gene creates it ), and the virulence of this pathogen is quite quite higher than the others. further more, in our region ( and i would expect it similar in yours ), usual effective combinations of F. cross resistance ( i want to say: resistance to more than a single race ) goes something like this: R1 and R2 very effective, R2 and R3 solidly effective, but R1 and R3... uh, not so high effectivness in resistant cultivars. in other words, usually varieties solidly resistant to R3 ( and those are just a few ) show lower resistance to R1 and vice versa.

so, nothing gets easy for you there... but, don't worry, you'll make it

Hi Ivan, welcome back. I hope your trip was a success. With all the bad news coming in from the test results, I do have a silver lining in that I can self validate myself as not so terrible a gardener. If I'm fighting some of the worst gang of "villains" as you say, I should be happy I'm getting any harvest...month short and not longer. Maybe one day I'll retire to a nice pathogen free zone and take to gardening at leisure, a land of milk and honey and no F. or V. for my golden years.
-n

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

oh oh oh, you really want to make it a ''mission impossible'' with those plants... are you surre those were alive when planting

ok, no time for long explanations, some details only:
* there is little to very little chances those plants could ever thrive, in the healthiest environment of all.
* those are in a desperate need for potassium as an ''emergency service''. on the other hand, potassium will make them more susceptible to F.
* phosphorus is also needed there ( it's a standard part of any growing procedure to feed the plants with some complex phosphorus fert ( ! never use any other kind but a complex P )- once mildly in pot- seedling phase, and once approx. a week after planting , because it will make them grow healthy roots, and it will also make quite some higher plants flowering and productivity ). but i definitely couldn't recommend such a treatment to you, although it's highly effective in tomato growing, mostly because the Ph of your soil, and a various range of basic amendments you have done when filling your beds, suggest that there could be a ''phosphorus situation'' there. that's why you HAVE to do a complete soil analysis before the next season, if it's really the case it could be quite uncomfortable, and i'm not kidding about it, ''loose'' phosphates are not a kind of thing to kidd about. btw, have you had any fruits with a bit of bitter, slightly unusual taste there?
* those plants will also be so very susceptible to just about any kind of pests or diseases you got present there, that it will be a ''task of all tasks'' to keep them alive long enough.

so, questions:
1) temps?
2) rain?
3) what was the look of the roots on those seedlings when you pull them out of pots ( mass, color, tip- ends )?
4) is there any new growth, even a tiny tiny one, you noticed emerging after transplant?
5) are the stems getting ''bigger'' in diameter, and if yes, would you say it's equal with all plants?
6) is the leaf color overally improving?

ok, what you need to observe closely:
- stems, getting bigger on not, deformations, discolorings, tiny irregular brown to orange/reddish lines visible at stems surface
- branches, structure- firm or not, shape- improving from the horrible one those plants had or not, angle- appearing normal or not
- internodia ( a part of stem between two branches ), equal everywhere or not, longer or shorter than usual, etc.
- leafs, for standard sympthoms of course

Yes, yes, yes... I felt and still feel lousy about having to use these decrepit seedlings. I went back to the market yesterday and they'd taken down all the vegetable plants they were trying to sell, so I guess my buy was the final. The rest probably went to a garbage bin grave. If any of them survive, I should get recognition for saving a doomed, homeless plant.

In any event, I really couldn't find any other seedlings for my purposes. I should have grown them from seed the moment we started discussing this experiment. I could have probably gotten some unknown, scientific varieties from UC Davis university. In any event, I'll work with what I've got here. There are also the row of broccoli that I planted, and I have given that area the same treatment as the experimental tomato bed. I usually see defoliation of my brassica, presumably to F. and/or V. It's not as bad as with the tomatoes, but it does still have a negative effect on my harvest there. So they might serve as another check on the procedure.

1) temps have been in the mid 90's last week, but they are falling and should be mid 80's to 90 over this coming week. I hope they stay there for a while. Night-time temps are now getting down to ~59F.

2) No rain or in the forecast this coming week.

3) roots were white and they were bound to their 3" cups. I didn't notice anything rotten or odd about the root-ends

4) I've noticed some new growth in the way of tiny new leaves coming out the creases, what I would call suckers. That's on 3 or 4 of the 6 plants. One of the plants seems to be outright dead (the one on the right-most control position in my pics).

5) Stems, so far, seem to be in stasis. I'm not happy about that.

6) New growth leaf-color seems fine. The older leaves are nasty, brown, yellow, speckled and dying. I can take some updated pics later.

I've never had success growing/starting tomatoes vines outdoors at the end of summer season. I don't know why, but they seem to just hang on and not grow. If we can make progress with even half of these plants that would be an improvement, and possible learning experience, regardless of a potentially shot experiment.

Thanks for your help.
-naysen