Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi Ivan, welcome back. I hope your trip was a success. With all the bad news coming in from the test results, I do have a silver lining in that I can self validate myself as not so terrible a gardener. If I'm fighting some of the worst gang of "villains" as you say, I should be happy I'm getting any harvest...month short and not longer. Maybe one day I'll retire to a nice pathogen free zone and take to gardening at leisure, a land of milk and honey and no F. or V. for my golden years.
-n

finally we meet online...
well, if i judged your personality correctly, i find you more of a fellow who would still be fighting the villains even at his golden gardening ages, rather than withdraw from the fight
i'd even say you would be doing it with a higher level of stubborness than you are now.

but you won't have to, those diseases do have an adequate treatment for it, it's just a matter of time when you'll get to that stage of knowledge and issue understanding.
and yes, absolutely, having any yields in such a mess is an enormous battle won, thrust me on that one

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

ok, what i recommend to do:

1)
if temps still high and weather dry, mites will be your enemy n1 there. those could finish such plants in a blink of an eye, so it's the primary concern.
what i was planning for was a sulfur treatment ( Kumulus DF ), which would effectively protect the plants against mites, mildews, and additionaly help V. and F. fight if soil soaked with it when spraying ( and you need to soak the soil with both copper and sulfur when you spray for foliars, it's a standard procedure ).
but oh... those plants are still in no shape for sulfur. do you happen to have anything less foliage- aggressive you could use against mites?

2)
copper on such plants is a must. spray it at 0.2%dilution rate, on 9/17 if possible ( with a presumption that you had weather as described earlier, with no mayor temp drops, heavy rains, etc. ), and soak both the plants ( leafs and stems ) and the soil ( 10-12 inches diameter around the plants ) well.

3)
''CPR'' ( emergency life- saving ) procedure:
if you still have some of that kelp, now is the time to use it, along with the fert ( NPK 4-4-6 ? ) you've mentioned. a higher K fert would be much better, but use what you have.
use it in the following way:
I: kelp+fert mixture, both at 50% of the recommended dilution rate, a good- thorough foliar and drench ( directly to the root area ), yesterday if possible. just kidding, but anyway do it asap, and pay attention that the following copper treatment needs to be made not less than 24h after the kelp+fert treatment.
II: kelp+fert mixture, both at 30% of the recommended dilution rate, just a good- thorough foliar, 5 days after the first treatment, but not less than 72h after the copper treatment.
III: kelp+fert+wormcasting tea, kelp and fert at 30% of recommended dilution rate, and you dont have to make any special kind of tea- just put some to a normal temp water, add some brown sugar and leave it like that for 12h, stir it for a couple of times and that's it. both foliar and drench ( directly to the root area ), 3 days after the second treatment if possible.

4)
please, do not water those plants directly to the root area!
a standard watering procedure for a tomato plant ( in the course of the V. and F. experiment or not, this is how it should be done ) :
- the first watering ( at transplant ) needs to be done deep, thorough, directly to the root area; prior to the transplant the seedlings should be put into a state of a mild drought ( a sensitive issue to determine how much of a drought, but it will make them'' shoot'' the roots like crazy after transplant )
- the second one should be done in a similar manner: deep, thorough, directly to the root area, but again after you put the plants into a mild drought state
- the third one should be done deep, thorough, but away from the roots: approx. some 5-6 inches away from the point you estimate the plants roots are at that point; if needed, a circular watering chanel can be made at such a distance
- after approx. 2 to tops 3 weeks after transplant, the plants should have developed an adequate root system; at that point, a watering channel needs to be made on both sides of the plants line, not closer than 10-12 inches to the stems, and deep watering at some 72- 96h intervals should be made ( depends on temp status and soil drainage/water preserving ability ); if you can put a ''drop by drop'' irrigation line there, you don't have to make the full channel, but simply dig some soil where you intend to put the line and move that soil away from the plants so that you create a ''formed'' area for watering; btw, if there wasn't for V. and F., the soil which you dig when forming the watering channel should be moved directly to the stems, helps them grow healthier roots in many ways
- after plants start forming fruits at the second fruit branch, the watering should be gradually changed to shorter intevals with lower water quantity ( eg., you aim for 50% of water quantities you used when you wanted the roots to develop, at approx. 48h intervals, but you don't simply start doing it at once but change it gradually ); this will keep the plants happy, less stressed by high temps ( which you presumably expect at that phase when growing in a regular season ), the fruit cracking will be reduced, and finally, issues like BER or some other deficiencies will be better controled because nutrient leaking and gasification will be reduced

ok, this was a general view on watering, but at your place that brick wall bothers me, it's quite close. if i understod correctly, it's cement bricks? if that's the case, you shouldn't water the plants from that side ( presuming that the wall is quite close to the plants? ), rather a single channel away from the wall and maybe some smaller channels between the plants ( vertically connected to the main channel ) would do.
it's actually quite important

and you definitely need to be checking the plants closely so you could determine when the sulfur treatment could be done, it's cruccial.

Hi again Ivan-

1) As it turns out, I do have a miticide, Akari (http://www.entomology.umn.edu/cues/mnla/akari.pdf), that might do nicely for this situation. I used it once last year when Steve (Heritage) noticed I had mites in a sample of a plant I'd mailed to him. It seemed to work well, so I never had a reason to use it a second time. Let me know if you think I should give it a try here.

2) I've still got plenty of the CuPro 5000 (Copper Hydroxide). I can double the concentration (from my previous spray). It sounds like you recommend spraying it the day after I feed and foliar spray with the seaweed/fert combo. Now if I have to spray with the Akari, shall I insert that before this. I might be able to tank mix the Akari with the CuPro. It's probably Ok, but I'll have to check the documentation on that.

3) Ok, since I've already performed a drench with ~50% dilute Seaweed/fert combo around 2 days after planting, I guess now that I'm a 8 days out after planting I should start with II, or rather start back at I at day8 (today)?

4) This bullet reads like a page from a textbook. A lot to take in and learn there, and i bet there plenty more theory and reasoning behind it all. So, I've been watering in and around the root area every other day since the planting. It sounds like I've not been performing the watering as you describe. Moving forward (from today on), I'll try to get with the program. I think I'll want to give them some water scarcity for a while to simulate the drought. Maybe in 3 days, I'll try creating the channels you described about 8" to 12" diameter from the main trunk. Moving forward, I'll create permanent channels at least a foot out from the trunks.

Yes, those are cement blocks. I understand they can be alkaline and raise pH in the soil over time. I do have them shielded somewhat by landscape cloth (2 layers), but that is porous and will breakdown over time.

I do have a question about step (3) where I am to perform these regular soil drenches with Fert and/or Seaweed. How does that hash with this step (4) where the roots aren't to be directly soaked at watering? Do we make an exception for the (3) step? Does that step stand as a watering?

Ha, I can imagine some old time gardeners looking at these posts and laughing. All this detail and specificity around something most folks take for granted. It's not supposed to be so tricky, eh.

Alright. When you get time, take a look at some of my questions.

Thanks,
Naysen

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

finally we meet online...
well, if i judged your personality correctly, i find you more of a fellow who would still be fighting the villains even at his golden gardening ages, rather than withdraw from the fight
i'd even say you would be doing it with a higher level of stubborness than you are now.

but you won't have to, those diseases do have an adequate treatment for it, it's just a matter of time when you'll get to that stage of knowledge and issue understanding.
and yes, absolutely, having any yields in such a mess is an enormous battle won, thrust me on that one

Yep. I see your green dot at the bottom-left of your posts. You must be online somewhere, if not here at Tomatoville. They should add a chatting feature to the site. That would be a nice "social networking" type feature. Maybe you cold charge $3.99 a minute for your services.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

and, finally, info on V. and F. status and concerns:

* V., if present at the place of the control group, would most probably ''finish'' those plants off by itself, in approx. 4 weeks period tops; V. doesn't usually act like that, but those plants are in such a shape that it would most probably happen- slow wilting, stunted plants, absence of vigor and growth, plants death- but please note, most probably the plants wouldn't exibit any drastical change in leaf coloring, rather it would be a total wilt with foliage still green to some extent.

* F., if present at the place of the control group, R3 especially, should kill those plants in 2- 3 weeks period after transplant tops; and this would be a much more aggressive process, fast wilting with total foliage yellowing and death, most probably stems visualy distorted, discolored, etc.; i'd say sympthoms much more like those from the photos of your father's garden than yours.

so, finally:
* if your test group survives initial transplant shock, with plants being in such a poor shape and direct contact with higly infected soil areas and residues, and exibits no wilting in 3 weeks after transplant period, you made the step n1.- pathogens are being in full initial control.
* if it survives trough additional 2 weeks, and gets into the week. n6 with no wilting and yellowing, you made step n2: pathogens still in control and entering a period when it will present lesser danger with each following day.
* if it survives the period from week n6 to week n10, it's the ultimate step: pathogens in total control.

at this point you cannot expect anything better from plants in such a poor shape. but, again, take the following into consideration:
* it's Autumn, right after a massive infection period, the soil is contaminated at a couple of times higher extent than it will be the case next Spring ( that's actually why V. or F. soil contamination is always judged by Autumn findings, the Winter, harsh or not, will hugely reduce the numbers ).
* those plants are enormously susceptible to anything that could come their way

so, basically, whatever result you achieve there, if it gets you with anything more than 6 weeks of no symptoms, you can solidly count it as a normal growing season in normal conditions, especially when stuff like ''cooking'' included to the equation

Hi,

Please don't feel I'll be in any way annoyed with you if all the plants die (control and experiment) here in the next couple weeks. I'm going to do my best to keep that from happening, but like I said, I've never done so well growing even healthy seedlings at this time of year. I took every advantage away from these guys except for your treatments. They were almost not meant for this world.

So about my dad's garden and plants. I feel awful because he isn't like me.. he's not up for giving the plants any TLC. They either survive by their own devices or fall down. This generally worked fine for him.. that was until I introduced all this wonderful stuff to his garden spot. So, I'll probably go over there and try and improve his situation this winter... that is, if he lets me near the beds. There's a good chance he will not. I've lost a lot of credibility with him.

Anyway, his plants look (well looked, they're long dead now) very must like the last 5 or 6 grafted vines I planted somewhat later in the season at my place. These vines never really set fruit and were stunted at at most 25% growth beyond what they were when I planted them. They just sat there in stasis. A few of them are dead now. I think they're pretty much undergoing what you described above.

For the experiment, maybe my broccoli plants can stand in as an additional data source.

I've got to run to work now. Let me know what your recommendation (if any different from the post a couple back) based on my updates on watering status, weather, miticide availability, etc.

Thanks for everything.
-n

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Yes, yes, yes... I felt and still feel lousy about having to use these decrepit seedlings. I went back to the market yesterday and they'd taken down all the vegetable plants they were trying to sell, so I guess my buy was the final. The rest probably went to a garbage bin grave. If any of them survive, I should get recognition for saving a doomed, homeless plant.

In any event, I really couldn't find any other seedlings for my purposes. I should have grown them from seed the moment we started discussing this experiment. I could have probably gotten some unknown, scientific varieties from UC Davis university. In any event, I'll work with what I've got here. There are also the row of broccoli that I planted, and I have given that area the same treatment as the experimental tomato bed. I usually see defoliation of my brassica, presumably to F. and/or V. It's not as bad as with the tomatoes, but it does still have a negative effect on my harvest there. So they might serve as another check on the procedure.

1) temps have been in the mid 90's last week, but they are falling and should be mid 80's to 90 over this coming week. I hope they stay there for a while. Night-time temps are now getting down to ~59F.

2) No rain or in the forecast this coming week.

3) roots were white and they were bound to their 3" cups. I didn't notice anything rotten or odd about the root-ends

4) I've noticed some new growth in the way of tiny new leaves coming out the creases, what I would call suckers. That's on 3 or 4 of the 6 plants. One of the plants seems to be outright dead (the one on the right-most control position in my pics).

5) Stems, so far, seem to be in stasis. I'm not happy about that.

6) New growth leaf-color seems fine. The older leaves are nasty, brown, yellow, speckled and dying. I can take some updated pics later.

I've never had success growing/starting tomatoes vines outdoors at the end of summer season. I don't know why, but they seem to just hang on and not grow. If we can make progress with even half of these plants that would be an improvement, and possible learning experience, regardless of a potentially shot experiment.

Thanks for your help.
-naysen

well, it's more of a challenge this way

excellent about the roots, that's a primary.

spots and specks on older leafs expected, copper should resolve the ''disease'' side and kelp+fert the ''nutrient and aging'' side of it.

suckers are good news, with a V. or F. infection on the run even those would be slow, stunted and wilty.

solid new growth color ( and absence of the wilty appearance ? ) great news.

equal and consistent stem widening will be the last thing which starts clearly getting visible, especially this time of year- lowering temps and day- light shortening make the plants go more high than averagelly. at this point, it's absolutely sufficient that stems show no signs of deforming, discoloring, etc.
and, please note: this early in the process, the first visible stem sign of a xylem invading pathogen infection would actually be appearing of unusually fast widening of stem diameter.
on the other hand, in later stages of the growth, fast stem widening is expected and you'll need to be monitoring for that.

finally, planting at Autumn or late Summer has a logic of it's own, and it's so very different than planting at Spring. it's something like a difference of a phase when one awakes from a phase when he prepares to sleep.
mainly, slower growth and reduced anty- stress capability of a tomato plant are expected.
but anyhow, i'm so far quite satisfied with the status you described, it's actually the first 10 days which should already show the early infection signs there.
please, if it's not a burden, try to post some close ups of plants, with some kind of numeration for each plant, it will enormously help you to monitor the process closely, and eventually react if needed. and it will make me happy too, can't wait to see what happens.

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi,

Please don't feel I'll be in any way annoyed with you if all the plants die (control and experiment) here in the next couple weeks. I'm going to do my best to keep that from happening, but like I said, I've never done so well growing even healthy seedlings at this time of year. I took every advantage away from these guys except for your treatments. They were almost not meant for this world.

So about my dad's garden and plants. I feel awful because he isn't like me.. he's not up for giving the plants any TLC. They either survive by their own devices or fall down. This generally worked fine for him.. that was until I introduced all this wonderful stuff to his garden spot. So, I'll probably go over there and try and improve his situation this winter... that is, if he lets me near the beds. There's a good chance he will not. I've lost a lot of credibility with him.

Anyway, his plants look (well looked, they're long dead now) very must like the last 5 or 6 grafted vines I planted somewhat later in the season at my place. These vines never really set fruit and were stunted at at most 25% growth beyond what they were when I planted them. They just sat there in stasis. A few of them are dead now. I think they're pretty much undergoing what you described above.

For the experiment, maybe my broccoli plants can stand in as an additional data source.

I've got to run to work now. Let me know what your recommendation (if any different from the post a couple back) based on my updates on watering status, weather, miticide availability, etc.

Thanks for everything.
-n

don't worry that i'm worried about that.

but i should probably explain what it is exactly that you are doing there, maybe my concerns would be simplier to understand:
you are trying to do something that science defines as impossible. V. and F. are officialy uncontrolable.
i just say they are, and i'm trying to show you how. since it takes a lot of effort and knowledge, i'll be doing that for as long as it takes, if you don't mind. on the way, we'll also try to resolve some other issues at your garden, and maybe improve your growing tactics if there's room for it.

as for your father's garden... a tough one there, maybe you should recommend some hybrids to him, since even container gardening will be a complex issue there.

also got to go, i'll see to answer the other details later this evening.

[z_willus_d]

As suggested, here are the pics of the plants taken this morning around 9am (PST).

In order, I have two pics of each plant (left to right facing the cement-block wall):

1. Marianna's Peace (control group) - not doing so well and may already be dead.
2. Marianna's Peace (experiment)
3. Caspian Pink (experiment)
4. Cross between Cherokee Purple and Lincoln something or other (experiment)
5. Cross between Cherokee Purple and Lincoln something or other(control)
6. Japanese Black Trifele (control)

I also posted a full-view picture of the tomato vines, as well as a pic of a broccoli seedling doing not so well and another faring well enough. My apologies for the quality. I'm finding my phone camera to loose clarity as it grows older and the lens more scathed from pocket wear.

-naysen

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi again Ivan-

1) As it turns out, I do have a miticide, Akari (http://www.entomology.umn.edu/cues/mnla/akari.pdf), that might do nicely for this situation. I used it once last year when Steve (Heritage) noticed I had mites in a sample of a plant I'd mailed to him. It seemed to work well, so I never had a reason to use it a second time. Let me know if you think I should give it a try here.

2) I've still got plenty of the CuPro 5000 (Copper Hydroxide). I can double the concentration (from my previous spray). It sounds like you recommend spraying it the day after I feed and foliar spray with the seaweed/fert combo. Now if I have to spray with the Akari, shall I insert that before this. I might be able to tank mix the Akari with the CuPro. It's probably Ok, but I'll have to check the documentation on that.

3) Ok, since I've already performed a drench with ~50% dilute Seaweed/fert combo around 2 days after planting, I guess now that I'm a 8 days out after planting I should start with II, or rather start back at I at day8 (today)?

4) This bullet reads like a page from a textbook. A lot to take in and learn there, and i bet there plenty more theory and reasoning behind it all. So, I've been watering in and around the root area every other day since the planting. It sounds like I've not been performing the watering as you describe. Moving forward (from today on), I'll try to get with the program. I think I'll want to give them some water scarcity for a while to simulate the drought. Maybe in 3 days, I'll try creating the channels you described about 8" to 12" diameter from the main trunk. Moving forward, I'll create permanent channels at least a foot out from the trunks.

Yes, those are cement blocks. I understand they can be alkaline and raise pH in the soil over time. I do have them shielded somewhat by landscape cloth (2 layers), but that is porous and will breakdown over time.

I do have a question about step (3) where I am to perform these regular soil drenches with Fert and/or Seaweed. How does that hash with this step (4) where the roots aren't to be directly soaked at watering? Do we make an exception for the (3) step? Does that step stand as a watering?

Ha, I can imagine some old time gardeners looking at these posts and laughing. All this detail and specificity around something most folks take for granted. It's not supposed to be so tricky, eh.

Alright. When you get time, take a look at some of my questions.

Thanks,
Naysen

1)
vow, you got yourself the japanese stuff... btw, i really did experience some troubles with finding Ortus ( the original name for the stuff ) in these parts of the world a couple of years ago.
no mixing with copper. as a matter of facts, there are just a few things one could mix with copper in ag world.
just use it in the same mixture with the kelp+fert foliar ( II ), at dilution rate 0.1%, but please as precise as possible. ''wash'' the plants with it, top growth and lower leaf sides especially.
it's excellent stuff, pyrazols are still far from critical with the resistance issues. not to be used more than once in the season ever, but it will keep your plants secured for at least 7- 10 days ( if the plants were fully developed the cover period woud be 4 weeks min ), later you can get back to those little monsters with some sulfur.

2)
yes, Cupro would come nicely a day after kelp+fert ( I ), and Akari together with kelp+fert ( II ) some 4 days after that.

3)
those are all mild thoses, with the point being in creating a high strength total dose of kelp and ferts, but in a certain longer period ( 8 days ) and with constant aplications. actually, such kind of approach to foliar fertilizing has shown much better overal results in comparison to higher single doses at longer intervals, and when ''emergency'' actions ( high stress situations with the plants ) are needed this approach is almost a law.
also, adding wermicast to III will upper the amount of nutrients ( K, P, N, Mg ) you'll be feeding your plants with, and approximately right when they'll be needing it the most ( entering the active vegetation phase ).
so, simply disregard the drench you did after planting, and start from kelp+fert ( I ) regularily as recommended, it can't do any harm.

4)
just don't consider those drenches as watering. those are smaller quantities of water, aiming to feed the plants with nutrients they highly need.
it's actually watering that will help those fertilizing drenches to ''keep up'' with their work.
just about any organic amendment, wermicast and others with beneficials especially, need plenty of water to work properly and have lower effects if moisture insufficient.
therefore, keep the watering at any regular ( constant ) rate that you determined there, just as if there wasn't any fert drenches.

i grew up, and later studied and learned amongst and from the ''old timers''.
you would be surprised with the effectiveness and scientific logic our grandfathers were introduced to...
just as an anegdote, my grandfather was born in 1892, never left his village ( aside to fight in a few wars ), didn't have any serious schooling.
but, when he was growing his tomatoes ( and grapes especially ), he used to boil Flaxinus family trees ( ash ) to protect from mildews. and he knew that a spray or two of that would protect his plants, although he didn't know that those plants ( Flaxinus ) were enormously rich in sulfur, and he couldn't scientifically explain where the protection comes from. he told me that his grandfather had taught him that. he knew a lot about woodashes, fresh manure at Autumn time too.
further more, the procedure you are trying to implement at this moment, was developed by a guy who was 84 years old at the moment he created it, although this one really had some high schooling on the matter. he was a 40 years regular university professor, and 15 more years he did it for fun.
and finally, the ''book of lerning from the old times'' is a fundamental starting point for quite a contemporary science named ''integral agriculture''. it's just that we ( the younger generations ) like talking about it very much and all the time, while the oldies didn't have to, it was much simplier and easier those days

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi,

...

For the experiment, maybe my broccoli plants can stand in as an additional data source.

...

-n

i almost missed this.

nope, broccoli is one of the few ''goldies'', not susceptible to both V. and F., your troubles there most likely come from soil Ph ( shouldn't be above 7 ), nutrients status ( asks for plenty of N ), heat ( whatever the sort, it doesn't like it very much ), and maybe some different kind of a disease ( there are some root rots typical for brassicas ).

actually, if you add any of the brassicas to the fresh manure in ''cooking'' procedure you'll get higher results.
brassicas generally create perfect conditions for ''pathogen harassment'', in other words, it's a big gun to use when suitable.
the correct ( most efficient ) way to add some effectiveness to ''cooking'' by using brassicas would be: fresh manure at Autumn, brassicas at Spring, incorporated into the soil some 4 - 7 weeks prior to transplants ( depends on what particular kind of brassicas used, some decompose quite faster than others ).
this also helps with nematodes ( hugely ), bacterial wilt, and quite some rots.

[Paradajz]

again, a very interesting one to me:
did you have any fruits with a bit of bitter, or slightly unusual taste there?

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

i almost missed this.

nope, broccoli is one of the few ''goldies'', not susceptible to both V. and F., your troubles there most likely come from soil Ph ( shouldn't be above 7 ), nutrients status ( asks for plenty of N ), heat ( whatever the sort, it doesn't like it very much ), and maybe some different kind of a disease ( there are some root rots typical for brassicas ).

actually, if you add any of the brassicas to the fresh manure in ''cooking'' procedure you'll get higher results.
brassicas generally create perfect conditions for ''pathogen harassment'', in other words, it's a big gun to use when suitable.
the correct ( most efficient ) way to add some effectiveness to ''cooking'' by using brassicas would be: fresh manure at Autumn, brassicas at Spring, incorporated into the soil some 4 - 7 weeks prior to transplants ( depends on what particular kind of brassicas used, some decompose quite faster than others ).
this also helps with nematodes ( hugely ), bacterial wilt, and quite some rots.

Very interesting. I always thought brassicas quite stinky, almost sulfuric. Could it be it has sulfur components that help in ways you've already described?

Going on what you've described here, I'll plan to side dress that area (where I'm growing broccoli) with the fresh manure later this Fall when I do the rest of the garden. After the broccoli have yielded their goodies in early Spring, I'll chop them up and turn them into all the beds as an additional hammer.

Thanks for the info.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

again, a very interesting one to me:
did you have any fruits with a bit of bitter, or slightly unusual taste there?

Sorry, I missed that question earlier. No, I've not had any issues with bitter tomato fruit. They've all been more or less good. I've tasted sweeter, but these seem par for my course.

BTW, w.r.t. the P in the soil, the major contributor there would have to be the rabbit manure I added before planting earlier this Spring. I can't think of any other sources, except the small amount available in my ferts, which I have tended not to use much through the season.
-naysen

[Paradajz]

ok, not the clearest photos of all but still do the job.

some questions:
* out of control group, two plants are already in a terminal phase ( JBT still holding on, but not for long, note some iregular stem widening in diameter ). would you estimate that those were pretty much that bad ( much worse than others ) when you planted it?
* out of experiment group:
- did M.P. have any of that yellowing visible at transplant?
- C.P. looking fine ( considering all the story ) i hope.
- A.L. cross unclear to me, was the necrotic branch visibly in bad shape on transplant?

anyway, bad news:
- M.P. was permanently damaged while in the pot ( those new growing leafs you considered suckers are actually ''forcebly'' emerging leafs, the top growth of that plant is 50% damaged, most probably by long exposure to sun or/and heat- the plant left out of potassium, new growth points half dead )
- C.P. looking fine so far, but suggests some signs of mite presence, just as the other plants do
- still can't tell anything abou A.L.

it will all be much simplier in a week or so

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Very interesting. I always thought brassicas quite stinky, almost sulfuric. Could it be it has sulfur components that help in ways you've already described?

Going on what you've described here, I'll plan to side dress that area (where I'm growing broccoli) with the fresh manure later this Fall when I do the rest of the garden. After the broccoli have yielded their goodies in early Spring, I'll chop them up and turn them into all the beds as an additional hammer.

Thanks for the info.
-naysen

to tell you the truth don't know about that.
what i do know is that brassicas are very fast ''decomposers'', which therefore produce quite a high level of ( organic ) gases in a fairly short period of time. more or less, this equals soil fumigation procedure to a fair extent.
further more, there is probably no other such source of ( beneficial ) microbe life in the soil as decomposing brassicas. it will produce quite enlarged beneficial bacteria and mycos numbers in the soil ( quite enlarged is estimated up to 150 times more than usual ), and those streptomycetes we were talking about will be enormously enormously enormously increasing their numbers on decomposing brassicas.

in addition, brassicas do wonders for soil ''healing'' by extracting and returning to ''normal'' some really heavy metal stuff from the soil.

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Sorry, I missed that question earlier. No, I've not had any issues with bitter tomato fruit. They've all been more or less good. I've tasted sweeter, but these seem par for my course.

BTW, w.r.t. the P in the soil, the major contributor there would have to be the rabbit manure I added before planting earlier this Spring. I can't think of any other sources, except the small amount available in my ferts, which I have tended not to use much through the season.
-naysen

no, no, i didn't mean phosphorus excess by the term ''phosphorus situation''.
P is an extremely complex issue.
if there was an excess you should notice some ''biterry'' taste over there.

but that's not the thing, P is dangerous in the other way:
in alkaline soils, with some other factors involved ( temp conditions, soil structure, moisture, inadequate presence of borron, enlarged magnesium, insufficient calcium, etc. ), P tends to get into forms which are unadoptable to plants ( locks down ), merges with some other elements and creates new compounds which, in extreme cases, can be very uncomfortable to people, and, in all cases, create troubles to plants ( locking down the other nutrients with it ).

that's why i'd really really like you to do the full analysis next year, you'll be more comfortable with it.

btw, maybe the best available organic source of P is typically wermicast, manure to quite a lower extent.