Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[Paradajz]

p.s.
and please, stop thanking me, i'm enjoying this, and i really really keep my fingers crossed and mind concentrated so that you get to be an undisputable 'king of your castle' again.

[z_willus_d]

Ivan, that was quite the analysis. So much from just a few pictures. I think your no conclusions based on the pics match reality. Yesterday evening, I pulled out several of the surrounding old vines, which were undoubtedly sources for pests of various sorts.

Question, when you right "nervature", are you referring to the veins of a leaf?

Since there was a high risk of rain and looming storm clouds, I held off on the spray #II, but I'll definitely see to that tomorrow evening.

Ok, I will not write "thanks" but really I pass that sentiment your way. I like the logical, progression you gave in the post above for assessing the leaf issues. BTW, I think most of those were there on exp-MP (and getting worse with time) at transplant time. Let's see what tomorrow brings.
-naysen

[Paradajz]

yes, 'nervature' is common word for the set of leaf veins here, sorry, still in troubles with English quite often.

as for the logics of any assesment in gardening, i only wanted to point out that it can't be done only with a 'visual principle'.
yes, visuals are important, but it's only a place to start. one needs to listen to his plants, those are actually talking all the time, and the more of the language he understands the more he'll be of a happy gardener eventually.

when we speak about that, yes i'll have a sugestion or two for improving your soil quality, but at this point we could talk only structure, need to see the analysis of it prior to any further conclusions.
btw, and related to the subject, could you tell, if your present generation of broccoli shows no yellowing in the progress, why it is we could be quite convinced that your soil most probably is low on sulfur?
and could you at this point see why it is we could possibly be concerned about P status there?

p.s.
unfortunatelly, on of the most helping side things with mites, more frequent watering with lower water quantities ( oh they like it dry&hot&dry ), is taken from you by the nature of the experiment, and weather conditions there make it impossible to have a constant watering syply on those plants, but we'll be talking some more mites here ( somehow hoping that Steve might join us there ), just note that water is a thing they don't prefer.

[z_willus_d]

Hi, the broccoli seedlings are all (or at least nearly all) progressing just fine. I don't see any yellowing of leaves -- all nice, pure green. I'm coming to believe the yellowing I've had on my prior brassicas leaves had more to do with P.M., now that you've ruled out F./V. If I spray sulfur later for the exp plants, I'll also hit the broccoli to help with the P.M. there. I'm pretty sure that's what it was now that I think back on the leaves and the dark splotches that accompanied the yellow leaves, especially after they had started to fall off.

I might try and answer your question about P status, but you never responded to my last response to a question you posted of or relating to theory (paragraph 2 of post #398)... did that one slip past you? I'd be interested how off the mark I was.

You wrote that I'd have noticed a" bittery" taste in the tomatoes if I had an excess of P. I never noticed that. I also no that I heavily amended the soil with rabbit manure last season, and rabbit manure is loaded with P. You also noted that in alkaline soils, which mine are slightly trending towards outside of the experiment/ctrl area, P can lock up with other elements like magnesium. I thought you might be suggesting the P might lock-up with the elements in the dithane m-45, but I see that has manganese and not magnesium. Still, there should be sufficient P in the fert I applied as a drench a while back. I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at.
-naysen
Manganese

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi, the broccoli seedlings are all (or at least nearly all) progressing just fine. I don't see any yellowing of leaves -- all nice, pure green. I'm coming to believe the yellowing I've had on my prior brassicas leaves had more to do with P.M., now that you've ruled out F./V. If I spray sulfur later for the exp plants, I'll also hit the broccoli to help with the P.M. there. I'm pretty sure that's what it was now that I think back on the leaves and the dark splotches that accompanied the yellow leaves, especially after they had started to fall off.

I might try and answer your question about P status, but you never responded to my last response to a question you posted of or relating to theory (paragraph 2 of post #398)... did that one slip past you? I'd be interested how off the mark I was.

You wrote that I'd have noticed a" bittery" taste in the tomatoes if I had an excess of P. I never noticed that. I also no that I heavily amended the soil with rabbit manure last season, and rabbit manure is loaded with P. You also noted that in alkaline soils, which mine are slightly trending towards outside of the experiment/ctrl area, P can lock up with other elements like magnesium. I thought you might be suggesting the P might lock-up with the elements in the dithane m-45, but I see that has manganese and not magnesium. Still, there should be sufficient P in the fert I applied as a drench a while back. I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at.
-naysen
Manganese

no, it didn't slip, just no time for it by now. it's an important one.

no, please, no need to spray broccoli for PM. it's a very rare disease for this plant, and when it occurs, it's more or less insignificant and needs no treatment.
if it really gets that your plants exibit no yellowing, it would most probably mean that your soil is low on S, as a nutrient, not as a fungicide.
somewhere along the road i'll see to explain the general 'turning' towards the importance of sulfur, and the overal 'shortage' of it now days, it's a thing much tested and results are a bit surprising, in a manner of speaking.
anyway, as we spoke earlier, broccoli could react with leaf yellowing to lots of factors, but the usual ones are nutrients, mostly N ( root rots wouldn't let you pick almost any of those ).
on the other hand, side by side with N, sulfur is extremely important for brassicas, even when N available in adequate suplies, the deficiency of S could cause the yellowing. further more, the usual sympthom of S deficiency on a plant is younger leafs yellowing, but with brassicas in particular the deficiency of S could compromise the N effects and cause overal, not just younger leafs yellowing.
finally, in slightly alkaline or alkaline soils, S tends to have a lower presence.
since you are somewhere close to the description, if such sympthoms don't appear on your plants again, it could be that you found a reason for it, unintentionally.
if it's a deficiency thing, the mixture and gypsum will absolutely do.
also, brown patches on leafs in such stages could come from any saprofites.

btw, the common cause of not paying to much of attention to S as a nutrient is that it's absolutely expected that it will be supplied to soil by rain falls. than again, these days in my country we are measuring annual falls with 20- 25% lower S than 30 years ago.
also, S deficiency is hard to 'get'- it needs to be at a very very low level so it would be quite serious to get visually exibited. on the other hand, at sufficient but low levels, it will make total yields quite under- optimal.
it's actually been 'the' subject of ag science for a while now, especially 'big guns' as grains related. but broccoli and cabbage fit the description too.

[z_willus_d]

Hi Ivan, ok maybe it's was not P.M. on the broccoli (I didn't have it tested), but I can guarantee it wasn't N-insufficiency. It could be something with S, though I had added soil sulfur to the bed they were planted in about a year before the last grow cycle. In any case, I'm not sure I see the harm in including the broccoli plants in a single sulfur treatment, which could help with some pests, and also guard against P.M. (unlikely as it might be) as well as help with the S-deficiency issues you mentioned. I see the major drawback there as being limiting my ability to spray neem to control aphids, which I like to do once the heads start to form. I'd need to hold off a month after the sulfur before spaying an oil based product.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

The first pic shows the area. I've cleared out several of the older plants to create a good 7' guard-band around the growing area. I'll try and remove the rest in the coming couple weeks.

I took a few more close-ups of plant 2 of 6 (exp-MP). Also a few of plant 6 of 6 (ctrl-JBT), and IMAG0977 is out of order showing plant 3 of 6 (exp-CP).

Finally, there's one of showing a broccoli seedling (packman).

No comments necessary... I'm just documenting the early progress here.

-naysen

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

........

As to your question, I know Cu to be a heavy metal that tends to bind to organic material (such as the stuff in soil). I know that most of it will stay in the soil in that manner. Actually, that is a concern of mine. I wonder if I need to perform the mancozeb+Cu(OH)2 in coming years, will I not start to build up a large residue of Cu in my soil over time. If I were to anticipate your answer, I'd guess you'll say that hopefully I'll have transitioned to n2 before that becomes an issue. Anyway, back to your question. I think we're hoping for a lot of that Cu to bind with Sulfur to make CuSO4, which is that counter-active for the fungi we're fighting. I know that Cu can get into the plant in lesser doses by way of various molecule combinations that allow it to become mobile. I'm not so sure how much of that makes it into the fruit. I've never heard of copper poisoning through fruit consumed by a plant, though I know it's possible if you receive to much of it in contaminated water or the like.

Please illuminate?
-naysen

ok, about this one, it's ''the question'' here, and it's only natural that you get worried about it, and it's better that you do.
i was also thinking on answering this one trough pm, but eventually chose not to, just would like that you, or anyone else, do not take anything i state here as granted, check all of it with any professionals if possible, and by any chance, please do not think it's a simple thing, which can be implemented easily ( carelessly ).

about fruit/copper issue.
your first and direct line of defence, and the way you know for sure that it won't get massively storaged in fruits and poison you, is the nature of copper:
it's higly toxic to plants, and it's extremely immobile ( it's the most immobile element of all actually, which means it can travel trough a plant in an extremelly slow and restricted manner ).
if by any chance it would happen that copper forms available to plants get there in such a significant amount so it could cause poisoning ( and it can't happen, if amounts used correctly and in long terms especially), the direct natural consequence would be that it would burn the plant roots, due to excessive amount and extreme immobility which would cause it to storage in roots massively, and consequently kill the plants before it could get into fruits in any massive amounts.
this was the simplest way to state it, without even looking to those diffusion and osmosis and active transport things ( a year long post it would be ), which actually provide another ''line of defence'' there.

so, in short terms i'd name it fairly safe. but what's with the longer horisont, will it massively storage in your soil there and present a threat of damaging your health that way?
this is a far more serious and complex one.
well, due to ''ancient'' status of copper in ag, and enormously long period of it's use, at places like vineyards and orchards especially ( in average it could be like 3-5 season treatments with average amounts, and 2-3 winter treatments with high amounts- double to tripple ), and also to the fact that copper still gets to be a fundamental tool of the most developed ag countries ( 50- 70% of total fungicide use goes for copper world wide ), the issue of copper polution and possible toxicity was raised a very long time ago ( 40-45 years back ), and check- tested for like a zillion times from then.
i'll just try to explain the basics here, and leave the rest to you:
1.
yes, you are right about it, copper will not move deep down, it will stay in the surface layer of the soil. actually, a dominant place it will tend to hold in soil is the first 4-5 inches layer, with going deeper the amounts of copper will be decreasing, and significantly.
2.
the previous fact comes from it's nature- it is one of the most bonding elements of all, also it's bonds with other elements are extremely strong and persisting ( permanent ).
3.
yes, you are again right that it will bond with organic stuff to a very significant extense. actually, the exact behaviour it will have is:
- it will ( very fast ) transform into copper residual stuff , with ( empirically tested ) percentage of 35-50%; higly important, this is the most unavailable form to plants, it's out of ''stabile pool'' ( not to go that far to explain the term, means it's unreachable and it won't get to uptake ).
- with some additional 20-40% it will bond to organic matter; again higly important, it's also extremelly unavailable to plants, due to the fact that beneficials will not be ''working'' on it and so transforming it to forms available for uptake.
- percentages of other forms differ in relation with the soil- elements status, but the highest following group will be compounds with Fe-Mn; it's also out of the border line, far from being available.
- next, carbonate compounds; those haven't been found in large amounts, but can get to be available due to it's water solubility; it's not an extremely fast process, but eventually it will get to releasing a certain ( very low percentage ) amount of copper, which for it's part will make new bonds quite fast, with the percentage order as stated.
- direct available forms, with the lowest percentage.
4.
the factors which will directly influence the possibility of copper uptake are water, temp, soil structure ( availability of oxygen ) and elements status, but far above anything else- soil Ph value. the standard is: the lower the Ph the higher availability of copper, and with Ph increasing the availability significantly drops.
btw, a recommended method for healing ( in-activation ) copper over- loaded soils is liming.

in general, more or less without significant differences, those test studies ( with most fields tested using copper at 5-30years periods, amounts vary, but let's say that an absolute minimum would be 150-200kg/ha per a year ) have shown an increase of copper amounts in soils, from 2 to 9 times, almost identically found in the 50-60cm top soil layer, but with absolute maximum in the top 10-15cm layer.
such resulst are still far from max. permitted levels ( for example, if you live anywhere in 30km range of an aluminium factory, or any other similar industries, you'll breath up far far larger quantities of it each day of your life ), but absolutely suggest that the use of copper needs to be strictly controled!.
further more, some Italian guys ( with no insult to others, lets say Italy would stand for one of /or the most developed Europian ag ) did research on increased copper presence influence to earth worms, back in the eighties, and found them not to be negatively reacting at any significant rates. btw, the use of copper in their ag is fairly above 70% at annual level.

.....
ok, it's a huge one again, the sequal in the following post

[Paradajz]

...
ok, let's see what those general facts mean regarding the procedure you are implementing there:

1.
first, this procedure was tested and has shown no negative results, but dissregard that and note some ''check points'' you'll be able to follow at your garden:
- if there is any ''initial'' copper excess there, your plants will ''burn'', very fast and starting from the roots; would be dead for a long time by now if there was any.
- if there is any ''overal'' copper excess there, your plants will exibit a very agressive iron deficiency; be very vigilant for this fact, it's due to it's nature that excessive copper will fastly and almost totally in-activate the available iron in your soil, in the top layer especially ( iron leaks down very fast ), therefore it's a check point; further more, from the facts such as your soil structure, components, amendments and overal Ph ( water and soil ), i estimate that your plants are somewhere near the ''margine'' point with iron sufficiency as it is, with no copper use at all.
2.
the fundamental thing you did there isn't in copper/sulfur relations ( although those are the ones we need the most to influence the pathogens, therefore the gypsum and overaly increased sulfur use ), but in copper/manganese one: the natural, extremely strong bond of the two was increased with the use of mancozeb, which consequently will highly increase the Cu/Mn final compounds we were mentioning at 3. in previous post, and therefore make it unavailable/un-harming to plants, but also will reduce the risk of inactivating the iron for the uptake there.
3.
again related to 3. in previous post, the amount of organic components of soil you have there is excellent, and it will increase further ''locking down'' of copper to a higher level than average.
4.
again related to 3., the gypsum amendment you did there will tend to prolong the activity of copper, trough the carbonate bonding it will stimulate ( the nature of gypsum: has both calcium and sulfur in significant amounts, but when combined with high-Ph levels, it will be a bit more slow release for both, but will slow the sulfur a bit more than calcium ); the activity of carbonate bonded copper may be prolonged this way, for another cycle- untill it ''leaves'' the carbonates and make another cycle of bonding.
5.
the water Ph ( btw, water Ph in my part of the world is always 8+, it's actually expected to be alkaline to some extent ) will additionally restrict/immobilise copper in your soil, just as the overal, disease-related desire to make your soil just slightly on the alkaline side will do.
btw, the measuring you did ( last photo set ) is just expected at this point with such conditions, but please note that, if you want it to be more adequate, it needs to be done closer to the plants, deeper than that, and also note that plants' roots create a specific thing named ''H+'' ( sorry, don't know how to make the ''plus'' smaller and centered in the up-right corner ), which will make it go quite more acid down there. i estimate your present Ph will be just adequate, as preffered, and that the trend due to amendments will also be just fine.

so, finally, it is my firm belief that the procedure will not make you or your plants any harm, but that's something you really need to estimate on your own.

as for the question about the lenght at which the procedure should be applied, it's 4 years with F and V in the game. those amounts of copper ( if applied properly! ), as the fundamental element used there, should pose no threat to your health.
also, organic amendments you are expected to make there as a regular, season-based process, will make an additional tool for copper ''lock down'' and decrease any possible health risks.
in addition to that, there are some other tools you can use so you can be certain that there will be no harm done, such as removing 10cm top soil layer before the season following copper applications, which will extraxt more than 50% of the residues from the place. might be expensive but effective, also if you feel that soil depth there is sufficient ( over 50cm ), such a layer doesn't have to be specifically replaced with anything else but the amendments you would do anyway. btw, i do expect that, once you get that soil analised, you'll be needing to do some more amendments as it is.
eventually, we'll get a chance to talk some more brassicas, junceas especially, and see how it can be effectivelly used as a 'soil healer'', due to it's ability to exctract heavy metal stuff from the soil.

uh

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi Ivan, ok maybe it's was not P.M. on the broccoli (I didn't have it tested), but I can guarantee it wasn't N-insufficiency. It could be something with S, though I had added soil sulfur to the bed they were planted in about a year before the last grow cycle. In any case, I'm not sure I see the harm in including the broccoli plants in a single sulfur treatment, which could help with some pests, and also guard against P.M. (unlikely as it might be) as well as help with the S-deficiency issues you mentioned. I see the major drawback there as being limiting my ability to spray neem to control aphids, which I like to do once the heads start to form. I'd need to hold off a month after the sulfur before spaying an oil based product.
-naysen

me again.

i didn't say it was N- deficiency, but an S one, as a possible cause for it. please note, with tomato plants it's somethhing very different, but with brassicas the roles of nitrogen and sulfur are extremely ''tied'', so that was a possible scenario where a S-deficiency causes overal yellowing of a plant, not just the younger leafs as it would be generally expected.

as for sulfur sprays on those plants, it could possibly ''mask'' the issue: gypsum is absolutely sufficient to cover for a possible S-deficiency if there is any ( not to meniton the mixture ), but will not cover any possible disease causes for yellowing. so, consequently, if it really was a S-deficiency issue, gypsum would close it.
but if it wasn't, and there is a disease causing the yellowing, a sulfur spray could resolve it, and therefore ''mask'' the point there: you couldn't say whether it was a nutrient or a disease thing, if it gets that no yellowing ocurs.
that's why i recommended not to spray- if it's a nutrient, S in particular, causing that, just gypsum will do. if it's a disease, the yellowing will come again, and you'll get one possible cause excluded, while diseases, temps and N will be left as the probable ''suspect group''.

i'd still rather use oil there, and for the oil/sulfur relation, i believe that Steve has some more info on that one.

[z_willus_d]

Hi Ivan, wow, that took a while to read through, but it was very satisfying serving.

I think there's an implicit "caveat emptor" (or maybe it's Edo Edi Essum in this case) for all information on the web. There's a lot of it, and it's important to understand the underlying agenda of the promulgator. In many cases, identifying the originator of content can be near impossible. Here I don't have that problem. What's your agenda, well I believe only the best that mankind can offer.. the free exchange of knowledge or experience for the betterment of ones fellows. The stuff of goodwill between fellows that Beethoven extolled in the ninth. In any event, I think this is how humans have gone on to "improve" and build up "something" where there was nothing. Is the "something" perfect and un-flawed, omniscient -- no, of course not. So I don't take the information you've freely provided as words from the mouth of God, but I treat it as I do most good intentioned input that I come across in life. I apply my best reasoning against it, my understanding of reality, and try to have some measure of confidence to allow me room to grow, even at some risk.

In short, please don't worry about my or others viewing your writing here as dangerous or eliciting bad behaviors or any of that. We're all adults and can choose to ignore or evaluate what you present as much as the next thing. I guess my concern here would be more that I get my feet wet starting to understand the theory and ideas you're conveying, and then you have to leave the forum permanently. That might leave me in a half-baked situation where I can't finish the cooking. I think you don't an exceptional job of trying to explain the why behind various procedures rather than just lay them out.

With what seems like an ever increasing scarcity of time, I do fall prey to wanting the quick, dumb fix. Hey, give me the 1./2./3. solution to my problems in the garden, and don't expect me to think about it. I've probably jumped to conclusions, or tried that 1/2/3 several times now shotgun approaching this specific V./F. issue. Look where it's gotten me. I guess I've learned a lot about things like grafting, soil chemistry, etc. along the way, but I would have been far more successful had I taken the time to understand my issue from the beginning rather than make assumptions based on little or inadequate data.

Alright, there's my spiel.

On the potential Iron issue, a year ago I bought a product, Espoma IronTone, which I thought I might use. I too had concluded that there could be a possibility of low iron in my grow media based on the contents. I haven't used any yet, but it's here. Do you see any issues/dangers in amending the soil with this before next season and also before my soil tests? Here's a link: http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/tones_iron.html

Yesterday evening the plants saw foliar-II (50% seaweed, 50% K-fert, 100% Great White beneficial, and 1tsp/gal of the Akari). I'll snap the morning pics now.

Good evening.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Not much to report with today's pics. It does seem that plants 1 and 5 of 6, both control, are goners.

-naysen

[Paradajz]

hi, N.,
thanks for your kind words, we share a similar view at the world i'd say.

as for the photos, it wouldn't be serious to claim that n1 and n5 were devastated by V/F with no steam cuts or tests there, although it sure looks like that ( n5 very weak from the starters actually, hard to say anything there- the plant looked to me as if it had no root progress at all, while n1 definitely looks like V issue ), but one thing i can say for sure: those plants aren't done by mites. in the most simple description, no ''bronze'' steam coloring typical for mite- termination there, mites did trouble those plants but it's something else that will evetually get them.
n6 was 7- 10 days away from the similar fate when the photo was taken.

what do you think, could you do a 0.3% kumulus treatment, both leaf sides ( aiming mites too ) and soil around the plants in the following couple of days ( have troubles connecting to the site you left for me to check the temps, also humidity important there )?

p.s.
by now you should start noticing first signs that mites are being ''blocked'' ( slowing down to a stop ) by the treatment you did, although max. effect in few days only.

[z_willus_d]

Hi Ivan,

I snapped some shots of the plants this morning. Plant #5 is toast. n1 isn't far behind. I agree that those two seedlings (especially n5) were in bad shape at transplant, so I don't feel too comfortable drawing any serious conclusions based on them.

The weather has cooled down significantly over the past week and it looks to continue the trend moving forward. You can see the 5-day for my realm here:
http://www.b.weather.com/weather/5-d...+CA+95661:4:US

The plants seem to be doing what all Fall plantings of tomatoes do for me... nothin much! I'm not sure why this is (I'm sure there's a good reason), but I've tried for years to get a late Fall crop to take, and they always seem to go into stasis like these here. Maybe you have some ideas.

I'll definitely aim for that 3rd copper treatment with an ovicide -- I'll target that for the weekend.

Have fun.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Not much to report. The plants are somehow stuck dead in their tracks. They don't look too bad for what they are.

I sprayed the .3% CuPro in the late evening yesterday.

We haven't seen any rain for over a week, and the next week looked to be ideal weather for the time of year.

I hope to see some movement by Friday.

-naysen