Hybrid vs. Heirloom

[clkeiper]

Originally Posted by Heirloom gard

Fact: bees that visit GMO corn die

Uhhh, the only problem I have with this statement is that bees don't visit corn. I keep bees and I grow corn and I have never seen bees visiting the corn as I was out there spraying the silks (which is when the pollen is dropping like rain all over the field) Never had any honey that was reminiscent of corn, either. While GMO's may affect the bees and their population, we need to realize that grains are in no way pollinated or dependent upon bees to do the pollinating of such crops.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by clkeiper

Uhhh, the only problem I have with this statement is that bees don't visit corn. I keep bees and I grow corn and I have never seen bees visiting the corn as I was out there spraying the silks (which is when the pollen is dropping like rain all over the field) Never had any honey that was reminiscent of corn, either. While GMO's may affect the bees and their population, we need to realize that grains are in no way pollinated or dependent upon bees to do the pollinating of such crops.

I agree.

Now spread honey on your maize and you will get bees.
Too many random statements by too many people that have never been on a farm.

Worth

[joseph]

I took the liberty of putting a red dot on this photo of corn flowers anywhere that it looked like a bee to me. When I count bees in my corn patch, it is common to have 10,000 honeybees at once in the small patches that I grow. Of course I don't grow GMO and I never apply any type of -cides at all to my fields so I can expect that they will be visited by insects. (Sorry about the poor quality photo).

[Worth1]

There are lots of Google images with bees on corn.
I cant even get a bee to come to my squash.
Too many other things they prefer
I have never seen a bee on my corn or my tomatoes.
Not even the hybrid tomatoes.

Worth

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Worth1

There are lots of Google images with bees on corn.
I cant even get a bee to come to my squash.
Too many other things they prefer
I have never seen a bee on my corn or my tomatoes.
Not even the hybrid tomatoes.

Worth

Bumble bees and sweat bees both visit tomatoes Worth. That's one reason why I plant Sunflowers in my Tomato patch. Last year I had swarms of them every morning, and I think that is one reason why my productivity stayed high right through the heat.

The reason for the disparity of opinion on honey bees visiting corn is they tend to swarm it, get all the pollen they need rapidly, then ignore it in favor of good sources of nectar. A corn field produces copious quantities of pollen, and you can't force a bee to collect an unbalanced amount of pollen compared to the nectar it also needs. But if the bees need pollen, and the tassels are out and producing, bees of all types definitely visit it.

[travis]

Monarch butterfly caterpillars feed only on milkweed. Corn pollen falls on milkweed that grows along the fence lines and borders of corn fields. If the corn is genetically modified to have bT genetics, the corn pollen will kill the Monarch butterfly caterpillars. I know this is not the same as killing honeybees, but ...

[travis]

If your intent is to attract sweat bees (Halictidae) of the type that love tomato pollen, let me suggest growing pepper plants, because they flower more continuously than sunflowers, and attract huge populations of Halictidae.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Bumble bees and sweat bees both visit tomatoes Worth. That's one reason why I plant Sunflowers in my Tomato patch. Last year I had swarms of them every morning, and I think that is one reason why my productivity stayed high right through the heat.

The reason for the disparity of opinion on honey bees visiting corn is they tend to swarm it, get all the pollen they need rapidly, then ignore it in favor of good sources of nectar. A corn field produces copious quantities of pollen, and you can't force a bee to collect an unbalanced amount of pollen compared to the nectar it also needs. But if the bees need pollen, and the tassels are out and producing, bees of all types definitely visit it.

I have carpenter bee houses by my garden and the things make nests in every hole they can find around the house.

Worth

[pondgardener]

I would agree with Scott and Joseph... the small patch of Mirai corn that I have been growing the last three years has been loaded with bees.

[Heirloom gard]

To the writer who says bees don't visit corn and like other flowers


The reason why bees are found on corn and domestic veggies is that they are starving. more and more native flowers are destroyed each year and less and less suitable habatat remains- Less then 1 to 2% of the MN prarire remains Even native plantings in parks are no longer suitable, much is sprayed by idiots who like to play god and think they are right..


furthermore guys honeybees aren't even Native to the us, they were brought over by the europeans who settled the land.


There are some that celebrate the downfall of another nonnative species in the us ecosystem. Although if ALL bees were to vanish- which is whats already happened in parts of China=- we will die,.

[joseph]

Bees gather pollen from corn and veggies because that's what they eat. Bees don't have a care in the world where the ancestors of those plants came from. To the young forager bees leaving the hive for the first time, every plant is a native plant because it has been there since time immemorial.

On many vegetable species bees cannot use flowers from commercial F1 hybrid plants because they are made using Cytoplasmic Male Sterility, which eliminates pollen from the plant. In brassicas it also messes up the nectaries so that the plants produce neither pollen nor nectar. So if you want to feed the bees, open pollinated or heirloom is the way to go for things like carrots, cabbage, turnips, radish, broccoli, parsnips. beets, sunflowers, chard, etc.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Heirloom gard

To the writer who says bees don't visit corn and like other flowers


The reason why bees are found on corn and domestic veggies is that they are starving. more and more native flowers are destroyed each year and less and less suitable habatat remains- Less then 1 to 2% of the MN prarire remains Even native plantings in parks are no longer suitable, much is sprayed by idiots who like to play god and think they are right..


furthermore guys honeybees aren't even Native to the us, they were brought over by the europeans who settled the land.


There are some that celebrate the downfall of another nonnative species in the us ecosystem. Although if ALL bees were to vanish- which is whats already happened in parts of China=- we will die,.

Calm down.
There are farmers on here that spray, you are calling them idiots.
Please don't call farmers or groups of people idiots, if it weren't for them you would starve.

Yes I know about your autism and how it effects people in different ways.
I am willing to put up with it if you are willing to kindly be told to chill out.
The world is a diverse place with many ideas and ways, we all have to live hear in peace.
It is getting smaller by the day.

Worth

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by joseph

Bees gather pollen from corn and veggies because that's what they eat. Bees don't have a care in the world where the ancestors of those plants came from. To the young forager bees leaving the hive for the first time, every plant is a native plant because it has been there since time immemorial.

On many vegetable species bees cannot use flowers from commercial F1 hybrid plants because they are made using Cytoplasmic Male Sterility, which eliminates pollen from the plant. In brassicas it also messes up the nectaries so that the plants produce neither pollen nor nectar. So if you want to feed the bees, open pollinated or heirloom is the way to go for things like carrots, cabbage, turnips, radish, broccoli, parsnips. beets. chard, etc.

This being Tville, I'll answer with that in mind.

It's true that many F1 commercial tomato hybrids are constructed using male steriles, but that's for the simple reason that it prevents self pollenization of the female, which is a big plus. And a big plus since if not for the male steriles humans have to and still do in certain places where seed is produced manually emasculate the blossoms which is so very labor intensive.

And that step is the last one where the two final OP's in each breeding line are finally crossed to produce the F1 seed.And F1 hybrid plants produce blossoms, as I think anyone knows who has grown them. Of the 3,000 plus varieties I've grown to date I don't think I've grown more than ten hybrids and that occurred whenI was asked to do some disease comparisona by the Cornell Coop Ext.

Tomato blossoms have no nectar,various bees seek the pollen as a protein food source only.

Carolyn

[WVTomatoMan]

Originally Posted by Germinator

I have a question that maybe some of your experts out there can help me with. I always thought that there was a definitive dividing line between hybrid and heirloom tomatoes. Something I read recently makes me wonder now. It refers to a book by Carol Deppe named "Breed your own Vegetable Varieties". I don't own the book (it was published in 1993 and may be out of print) but from a short clip from that book that I read, I gather that there is not really much difference.

I am experimenting with grafting this year and wondering if I should try to graft a hybrid to a rootstock? Seems like the reason you use a hybrid is for disease resistance and that is exactly why I am grafting heirloom to rootstock.

Would love to hear any opinions/facts out there. Carolyn??

I have Carol Deppe's book "Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties". I have the second edition of the book which I purchased circa 2001.

I'm not sure what you're referring to in the blurb that you read. Perhaps there was a page number that you can cite so I can look it up?

As far as the dividing line between hybrids and OP (all heirlooms are OP) I think she does a fine job defining it. The following is taken from page 10 of the aforementioned book:
"...(An open-pollinated variety will come true from seed; a hybrid - the offspring of a cross between two true breeding varieties - will not.)"

When you cross two varieties (which I have done) you create an F1 hybrid. The only difference between your hybrid and commercial hybrids is you know what the parents are. For commercial hybrids the parents are proprietary.

When she (Deppe) discussed her beloved Early Girl she clearly referred to it as a hybrid. However, she was looking for something with similar flavor, but smaller. So, in her case she wasn't really "de-hybridizing" she was stabilizing a variety based on selection criteria (which is why I prefer this term over "de-hybridizing"). In order to accomplish her goals she would go to the plant that produced the smallest tomatoes and save seeds from any tomato on that plant. In other words you wouldn't save seeds from the smallest tomatoes on multiple plants.

I don't graft. The issue I have is foliage diseases and grafting won't fix that. In general I would say to base your root stock selection on the issue(s) you're trying to address.

Good luck.

Randy

[frogsleap farm]

Sorry to be joining the conversation so late. As a breeder I am finding advantages to F1 hybrids that may not be obvious. I summarized my thoughts on this at http://www.frogsleapfarm.blogspot.com. I'll be testing several dozen new F1's this year, and making ~100 or so new ones next year to try and find exceptional combinations. So far I am generally seeing some heterosis for both yield and flavor.