Is Independence Day Tomato the same as 4th of July?

[MikeInCypress]

I bought Chef Jeff's Independence Day today. Is it the same as Burpee's 4th of July?
I know that Chef Jeff sometimes uses descriptive names rather than the actual variety name but this one seems to not fit that parameter. Thanks.

MikeInCypress

[Doug9345]

Burpee's lists Fourth of July as an inderterminate

http://www.burpee.com/vegetables/tom...rod000988.html

Rohrer Seeds lists Independence Day as a determinate.

http://www.rohrerseeds.com/INDEPENDE...T/item/LG02660

It looks like Fourth of July is a Burpee variety and Independence day comes from Livingston Seeds.

This thread also says they are different.
http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=26688

[dpurdy]

I've grown both of these varieties and have now switched to the Ultimate Opener tomato. It's a hybrid that I grew last year and was pleasantly surprised with their production, flavor, and size of the fruit. For me, Ultimate Opener out produced both Fourth of July and Independence Day, and produced tomatoes longer. It is an indeterminate plant that doesn't get 8 or so feet tall. Mine got about 6 feet. If you're looking for an early tomato, I would suggest trying some of these. I was harvesting these around the 1st week of July. They were my first plants to yield ripe fruit.
dpurdy

[MikeInCypress]

I just found more on Chef Jeff's Page:
"INDEPENDENCE DAY
This early producing tomato will be one of the first to ripen in time for your barbecue and Independence Day celebration- just 49 days from transplant to harvest. Strong vigorous plants supply bright red fruits that average 3-4 ounces all season long with great consistency and flavor. The sweet, juicy tomatoes produce an abundance of fruit so you can pick several at a time for salads and cooked dishes.
Indeterminate"

So now I am almost positive it is 4th of July. Same stated maturity. Burpee says 4 oz. We will see.

The Chef Jeff is a replacement for the 4oJ that I lost in the big freeze. That one had a little tomato already.

MikeInCypress

[Foose4string]

Burpee has Independence Day and 4th of July. They describe their Independence Day as indeterminate, DTM is 56 days, and fruit 6-8 oz. 4th of July is 49 DTM, 4 oz., and indeterminate. I haven't grown either one, so I can't comment on how accurate the descriptions are. Chef Jeff listing 4th of July(if his description is correct) as Independence Day just further adds to the confusion.

[RJGlew]

The Independence Day I grew last year is from Livingston Seeds of Ohio. It is a small-ish determinate potato leaf plant which is genuinely cold tolerant in my Zone 3a. It fruited at about the same time as Stupice and to me, it seemed quite similar to Glacier. This year I am planning on growing ID and Glacier side by side for comparison.

For me in Calgary, Fourth of July is not an early tomato. Our cold nights seem to slow its growth and it did not yield fruit last summer until after the 2nd week in August. This year I have found a Burpee tomato called "Early Treat Hybrid" which is also Indeterminate and 49 DTM. It is not listed on their web site. I emailed Burpee to ask what is the difference between ETH and FOJ and they did not provide me with a clear answer. There is a 2013 thread in Tomatoville on ETH vs FOJ which provides some info, but nothing that makes me feel the two are much different. This year I will plant an FOJ, ETH and a Matina side by side to see which I like best.

rg

[Foose4string]

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=17837

Is this the thread you are referring to, RJ? Burpee did not give a real clear answer to the question. First, they said Early Treat was different. Then, they said it was very similar to FoJ. Germplasm? Looks like a fancy word used to stifle the curious. I know Burpee doesn't have the greatest reputation on tomato forums, but I have no issues with them so far. If they say it is different parentage, but similar(maybe very close relatives?), I have no reason to disbelieve. Hybrids are their "thing".
However, it doesn't seem very responsible of them to name one of their hybrids "Independence Day" if that name already existed for something else. DTM is about the same at 55 days. Livingston describes theirs as determinate and Burpee does not. Is the determinate Independence Day OP, or not? Burpee says hybrid. I will be curious to hear about your grow out results, RJ!

[travis]

Note that the Independence Day from Livingston Seed Co. is open pollinated and potato leaf.

[Foose4string]

Yep....I see it now Travis. The name game continues. Since there is an OP of the same name, they should have left it alone. How about calling it "Liberty", or "Declaration"? Or, are those names taken?

[Wi-sunflower]

Burpee seems to be rather challenged when it comes to names. Example is the Burpee Tie Dye tomato vs the Berkeley Tie Dye. (I know 1 of them is spelled a bit differently but I'm not awake enough right now to look up which is which) Basically stealing Brad Gates' variety name is what got a lot of TV'ers mad at Burpee.

~~~~~~~~~

BTW, for those of you concerned with saving seeds from what Burpee calls a Hybrid -- do it anyway. I've grown out seeds for at least 5 Burpee "hybrids" and have never seen anything other than what looked like the very same tomato. Yes I did get some PL 4th of July seedlings. But I'm not so sure that wasn't just because a careless picker went beyond the variety and got into the next variety. I used to group similar varieties when planting. So Matina or Stupice was probably next to the 4th of July. Now i make sure we have different looking things next to each other.

~~~~~~

For anyone looking for an early to compare with 4th of July, I have a variety called Russian Apple Tree I got in a trade. It's possible it's just a re-named Matina, BUT the year I got it, I planted RAT and Matina 1 day apart in rows 2 rows apart and the RAT had ripe fruit 3 days earlier and they were noticeably bigger. Just a bit bigger, maybe a 1/2 ounce but you really could see the dif. Both Russian Apple Tree and Matina are Potato leaf and indeterminate.

Carol

[RJGlew]

Originally Posted by Foose4string

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=17837

I will be curious to hear about your grow out results, RJ!

That is the thread - thanks. I will report on Livingston ID vs Glacier here.

rg

[travis]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

BTW, for those of you concerned with saving seeds from what Burpee calls a Hybrid -- do it anyway. I've grown out seeds for at least 5 Burpee "hybrids" and have never seen anything other than what looked like the very same tomato. Yes I did get some PL 4th of July seedlings. But I'm not so sure that wasn't just because a careless picker went beyond the variety and got into the next variety. I used to group similar varieties when planting. So Matina or Stupice was probably next to the 4th of July. Now i make sure we have different looking things next to each other.

Carol

While I agree with you generally that there are several Burpee hybrids that segregate out nearly identically to the F1, 4th of July routinely segregates out potato leaf in ratios that indicate it is indeed a hybrid with one PL parent. Same goes for both Early Girl (original) and Early Girl Improved, in all cases where I have grown the F2s.

Yes, there always is the possibility of happenstance harvest of the open pollinated fruit from the same vine as the F1 seeds are harvested, but in those cases, the potato leaf expression would show up in the seeds in the same package sold as the F1 seeds, right? And not in the F2 populations at a ratio of 3 RL to 1 PL sprout as has happened consistently when I grow F2 Early Girl and 4th of July seeds.

[Sun City Linda]

I think the highest and best use for and of Burpees Fourth of July Hy is a trooper in the heat. That thing is indestructible, well, almost. As for actual early tomatoes, I much prefer moskvich its bigger and tastes a LOT better!

[RJGlew]

2014 Growouts:
Independence Day (Livingston) appears very similar to Glacier (Botanical Interests) and imho, may be just a re-brand. Seeds look the same, as do the plants, flowering habit, yield & fruit set. Glacier has grown a bit taller. Both delivered identical looking first fruit within a few days of one another, and I could not differentiate them on taste. Interestingly, Glacier flowered 20 days later than Ind. Day, but delivered first fruit within 5, likely due to our very cold June. I will grow both again next year.

Name Source Height Spread 1st Flower 1st Fruit
Glacier Botanical 36-48" 18-24" Jun 24 Aug 04
Ind. Day Livingston 30-36" 18-24" Jun 04 Jul 30


Fourth of July F1 (Burpee) and Early Treat F1 (Burpee) are clearly similar, but imho, not identical. Seed size is dramatically different, with ET being much bigger. Growth rate, leaf size and flower set locations are identical on each plant, but, for each flower set, Early Treat produces at least 2 more fruit than Fourth of July. The further up the plant the flower sets are located, the greater the difference (up to 8 more). Fruit size is identical and I cannot taste any difference between them, and the skin texture/thickness is the same. For me, based on the significantly greater yield of Early Treat, I will be shifting to it for next season.

Name Source Height Spread 1st Flower 1st Fruit
Early Treat Burpee 48-60" 18-20" Jun 09 Aug 04
4th of July Burpee 48-60" 18-20" Jun 09 Aug 04

Originally Posted by RJGlew

The Independence Day I grew last year is from Livingston Seeds of Ohio. It is a small-ish determinate potato leaf plant which is genuinely cold tolerant in my Zone 3a. It fruited at about the same time as Stupice and to me, it seemed quite similar to Glacier. This year I am planning on growing ID and Glacier side by side for comparison.

For me in Calgary, Fourth of July is not an early tomato. Our cold nights seem to slow its growth and it did not yield fruit last summer until after the 2nd week in August. This year I have found a Burpee tomato called "Early Treat Hybrid" which is also Indeterminate and 49 DTM. It is not listed on their web site. I emailed Burpee to ask what is the difference between ETH and FOJ and they did not provide me with a clear answer. There is a 2013 thread in Tomatoville on ETH vs FOJ which provides some info, but nothing that makes me feel the two are much different. This year I will plant an FOJ, ETH and a Matina side by side to see which I like best.

rg

[MadCow333]

I'm growing Ferry Morse Sow-Easy Independence Day. Determinate, potato leaf. Posting this msg so I can add pics later today. I'm in NW PA. Ain't no way I'll get tomatoes by July 4 from these plants. lol

eta: Here's the envelope. These were seeds with thick red coating on them. I started them back in mid-April. Slow to grow. Definitely didn't go spindly, haha.
eta2: The tomato photo on the envelope is the same tomatoes as on the Livingston envelope shown, above. Just worked over a bit.


Here are the plants. I almost threw these plants out. I just left them parked in cups outdoors. They have suddenly started to grow so I'll pot them up in larger containers and see what we get. Definitely would not buy this seed again. Slow and poor germination. Very slow growing. I only saw one package of these at the store. I bought them because I was concentrating on getting some early varieties started in April. I'm going to presume that these prefer strong sunlight and a warm climate. (Photobucket may allow me to rotate this photo, someday. lol)