Most 'economical' method of building up soil?

[Tracydr]

Originally Posted by Tania

Wow, Tracy, this is so beautiful! How big is your land?

We have 21 acres. About 2 acres is cleared back behind the pond and I'll move my horse back from the neighbor's as soon as I can get it fenced and a shed for shelter built. Waiting on our house in AZ to close before I can do that.
I have a smaller area cleared on the lower property in front of the pond, actually two areas. One is the septic field which they put in to replace a faulty field. It's about 1,000 feet by 150 feet. The other is a little bit smaller, maybe 400x100. I hope to put the main garden and the fruit trees in the smaller area. The septic field will get planted with blueberries and strawberries. I think the blueberries should be okay there as I understand they have fairly shallow roots?
Around the pond there are some spots with more sun than anywhere except the pasture. I may end up planting perennial edibles in those areas. I will be starting artichoke seed today, along with brassicas and herbs.

[Tracydr]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

I need to get out my water color sets and some paper! That is a stunning view!

Thanks! The back of the house lies to the left of that picture and we look out to the pond. Fell in love with the place the second we saw it! It's a little far from my work (50 miles) but after driving 45 miles through downtown Phoenix for 6 months last year I know I can handle 50 rural miles.
Hubby is only about 15-20 miles to work.
I will probably work for about a year at my new job and then, after I get my NC license, I'll look for something local and part-time.
I'll eventually have lots of mini-gardens in the little sunny spots with things like lettuce and herbs near the house (except for mint plants, which I'll stick in amongst the bamboos or something else, a safe distance from the other gardens). I really want to try growing lots of fruits. I've only had peaches and apples, from when I was in OK, and citrus in AZ. I'm hoping to try just about any good fruits that will grow in this area.

[efisakov]

Tracy, I do not know if walnut trees do well in your area, neither what chemicals were used in that old septic, but if it is all fine...
My grandma (in Ukraine) planted walnut tree near old septic place, she did not use chemicals. That tree was huge and productive.
My entire lot with the house on it is only 50 by 100 feet. I planted single sour cherry tree, no space for more. No fruit yet.
From my childhood, I can still taste fresh peaches picked at my grandma place. Juices running along your arm as you bite into it.
Good luck with all your planting. It is going to be lots of work that will pay hopefully with good produce. Enjoy.

[clkeiper]

Originally Posted by efisakov

Tracy, I do not know if walnut trees do well in your area, neither what chemicals were used in that old septic, but if it is all fine...
My grandma (in Ukraine) planted walnut tree near old septic place, she did not use chemicals. That tree was huge and productive.
My entire lot with the house on it is only 50 by 100 feet. I planted single sour cherry tree, no space for more. No fruit yet.
From my childhood, I can still taste fresh peaches picked at my grandma place. Juices running along your arm as you bite into it.
Good luck with all your planting. It is going to be lots of work that will pay hopefully with good produce. Enjoy.

A walnut tree will suppress competition where ever its roots reach and its leaves fall. Even for years after the tree is gone, you would never be able to plant anything in the spot.

The septic isn't an issue as long as the lines aren't too shallow (as in you dig them up. that gets expensive to repair) We planted right over ours and even put a high tunnel over part of the original field. We checked with the health dept and they said it was okay. even actually better for the environment as the plants will use up more of the water and effluents than letting them leach down into the ground.

[Tracydr]

Originally Posted by efisakov

Tracy, I do not know if walnut trees do well in your area, neither what chemicals were used in that old septic, but if it is all fine...
My grandma (in Ukraine) planted walnut tree near old septic place, she did not use chemicals. That tree was huge and productive.
My entire lot with the house on it is only 50 by 100 feet. I planted single sour cherry tree, no space for more. No fruit yet.
From my childhood, I can still taste fresh peaches picked at my grandma place. Juices running along your arm as you bite into it.
Good luck with all your planting. It is going to be lots of work that will pay hopefully with good produce. Enjoy.

Thanks. We have lots of different types of hickory, wild blackberries ( which I need to control), and a few choke cherries. I haven't noticed a walnut tree, although it's possible, since I haven't been able to walk yet down by the creek. I won't attempt going down there until the viney plants and mosquitoes die down for winter. The creek is now just a trickle because it is blocked upstream on a neighbors farmland by some sort of can grass that has fallen into the water.
We have a well and the water is delicious and plentiful. The pond is spring fed so I can probably pump it lightly to water plants. I don't think there will be a septic issue with chemicals. The house was empty for 3 years and the inspector recommended a new septic leach field, due to tree roots. That's where I plan to grow strawberries and blueberries, since it's one of the few areas not completely covered in huge trees.
Some of the pines and oaks are over 100 feet tall!

[Lindalana]

To return to original question- is it general consensus that when one gardens veggie intensive it is very hard to create close loop and at some point have only small outside input added to inside cover crops, mulches and compost in regards to supporting sufficient humus level in the soil? Am just learning all this and can't wrap my head how doable sustainable systems when one gardens veggie intensive...

[COMPOSTER]

Originally Posted by Lindalana

To return to original question- is it general consensus that when one gardens veggie intensive it is very hard to create close loop and at some point have only small outside input added to inside cover crops, mulches and compost in regards to supporting sufficient humus level in the soil? Am just learning all this and can't wrap my head how doable sustainable systems when one gardens veggie intensive...

I think a lot depends on the amount of land you have and whether you have animals or not. I think even close to closed loop is very tough unless you have a diversified farm.

I try to use as much as possible from my own land but, to grow the nutrient dense produce I want to grow I still need to purchase some form of calcium, pick up manure and rock dust and have wood chips delivered.

Glenn

[Tracydr]

Originally Posted by Lindalana

To return to original question- is it general consensus that when one gardens veggie intensive it is very hard to create close loop and at some point have only small outside input added to inside cover crops, mulches and compost in regards to supporting sufficient humus level in the soil? Am just learning all this and can't wrap my head how doable sustainable systems when one gardens veggie intensive...

Interesting question. I tend to plant lots of herbs and various flowers near my gardens and I also plant perennial veggies ( or those that become perennial in warm climates) mixed into flower gardens. I purposely plant lots of flowers that attract butterflies, bees and good bugs.
I'm a little worried here in NC because I'm basically surrounded by corn and soy. I noticed a crop duster a few times. Not sure if it was dusting the soybeans with insecticides or herbicide.
Could have even been a fertilizer I guess. When I was new to gardening and hay/pasture management we would have the hay fields arial sprayed with fertilizer and I believe 2-4D. We only did it a couple of times and then went to mowing/manure spreading instead.

[COMPOSTER]

Originally Posted by Lindalana

To return to original question- is it general consensus that when one gardens veggie intensive it is very hard to create close loop and at some point have only small outside input added to inside cover crops, mulches and compost in regards to supporting sufficient humus level in the soil? Am just learning all this and can't wrap my head how doable sustainable systems when one gardens veggie intensive...

Lindalana,

I want to add to my answer above to hopefully more fully address your question as asked. First of all, closed loop is closed. It can only mean that everything in regards to soil fertility and vegetable production is produced on sight. If it is not produced on sight it cant be considered closed loop. So again for 90+% of us I feel it is basically impossible unless you have a lot of land and only a small portion of it is dedicated to intensively growing vegetables. However, if you did have the land and the time required to dedicate to growing plants like clover, alfalfa and grass, had lots of deciduous trees to provide leaves for composting and mulching and branches for chipping, then yes, I believe that over time you can intensively grow vegetables and support a sufficient humus level. It will not be easy and will take a lot of time but yes you can definitely do it.

I am currently experimenting with garden beds that are covered with 4-6 inches of ramial wood chips in hopes of creating more sustainable garden beds. Once established they should require fewer outside inputs. They would not be considered closed loop by any means but you can consider them low input and they do use sustainable resources.

Check out Tania's thread on wood chips in the garden.

Glenn

[habitat_gardener]

Technically, for a "closed loop," if you are eating the produce, you have to return fertility to the soil (humanure).

There's an old anecdote about a farmer who calculated that to return full fertility to the soil in a closed loop would require the farmer be buried in the field.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by habitat_gardener

Technically, for a "closed loop," if you are eating the produce, you have to return fertility to the soil (humanure).

There's an old anecdote about a farmer who calculated that to return full fertility to the soil in a closed loop would require the farmer be buried in the field.

I have heard all that nonsense. I don't buy it though. It isn't a closed loop. The sun is outside the farm or garden, and supplies energy. The air and water come from the sky and that was over another part of the earth shortly before it arrived to your farm or garden. You can close some of the loops, but the system as a whole certainly isn't a closed loop and never could be. The trick is to tap into the regenerative self organising nature of biological systems, which of course is ultimately powered by solar energy, so that it doesn't break the laws of physics, especially entropy. Sure theoretically even the sun will end some day, even the whole universe, but in realistic terms and scales of time, it is possible to increase fertility without returning every speck of material back to the same farm it was produced. Between the rain, wind and sun, it is enough in nearly every case ... if you set up the right artificial agricultural ecosystem models.

Now you might have to "jump start" the system with some key things. That's not uncommon. But if you are needing to continually add high outside inputs, then something is fundamentally wrong (like trying to grow watercress in the desert ).

[efisakov]

Scott, AKA The Redbaron.
I add fish guts and heads to my tomato patches and even containers. I do this not once, but few times a year (we fish almost every week). I also add lobster and shrimp scales, egg shells.
What is your opinion on that? Pit moss is added as well every year to make my soil moist.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by efisakov

Scott, AKA The Redbaron.
I add fish guts and heads to my tomato patches and even containers. I do this not once, but few times a year (we fish almost every week). I also add lobster and shrimp scales, egg shells.
What is your opinion on that? Pit moss is added as well every year to make my soil moist.

I do all that in my garden. I think it more than makes up for whatever tomatoes and carrots you might harvest without having to pee and poop in your garden.

I am not really against using "night soil" in the garden, as long as it is composted properly for sanitary reasons. On a farm scale there are issues though. Sewage isn't just human waste but instead who knows what someone flushed down the toilet. You can't monitor and prevent a whole municipality from sending any number of toxic chemicals and heavy metals down the drain. But personal gardens a composting toilet is ok, so are kitchen scraps if you are squeamish about that. Kitchen scraps and lawn debris should more than be adequate.

[efisakov]

Thanks.

[Tania]

I believe that you'd need a minimum 1 hectar of land to create everything you'd need to garden, using permaculture methods.

This includes farm animals and birds, for manure and pest control.

I wish I could try that, but I think this will remain my dream only.

Tatiana